11 Temmuz 2012 Çarşamba
10 Temmuz 2012 Salı
9 Temmuz 2012 Pazartesi
Quick Update
To contact us Click HERE
Just a quick update to note I didn't fall off the face of the earth or anything. Two Sundays ago, I took a break and went and saw Watchmen at the Alamo Drafthouse on South Lamar. I probably should have blogged the movie. I think I actually got a better appreciation of why God often does not intervene in the affairs of men when we think He should after seeing Dr. Manhattan explain it in the movie.
Last Sunday, I saw Spamalot. I guess watching a show based on the Holy Grail qualifies as some type of religious activity! Anyway, I'll be back at church this Sunday and talking about it on here, so stay tuned.
Last Sunday, I saw Spamalot. I guess watching a show based on the Holy Grail qualifies as some type of religious activity! Anyway, I'll be back at church this Sunday and talking about it on here, so stay tuned.
I Got My First Gig
To contact us Click HERE
"I got my first gig." That's what I jokingly told my wife after receiving an invitation to come talk about my blog and share my experiences with a group of men in Austin (they refer to it as First Friday Men's Group). Looking at some of their past speakers, I can't help but feel a bit out of my league. But then again, I like to talk, so if someone will listen, I guess it'll work out.
Anyway, I am excited about the opportunity. It'll be interesting to hear what others think about the blog and the journey itself. Hopefully, we'll all learn something from each other. Of course, I should probably warn them I'll be writing about them on here as well. LOL
I visited St. David's Episcopal Church this morning. I'll be writing it up later this week.
Anyway, I am excited about the opportunity. It'll be interesting to hear what others think about the blog and the journey itself. Hopefully, we'll all learn something from each other. Of course, I should probably warn them I'll be writing about them on here as well. LOL
I visited St. David's Episcopal Church this morning. I'll be writing it up later this week.
St. David's Episcopal Church
To contact us Click HERE
St. David's Episcopal Church is a beautiful church located in downtown Austin. It's a very active church, with multiple services all during the week. I was looking forward to this service as my personal experience is that the Episcopal Churches have possibly the most beautiful liturgy in the world (of course, that is merely my opinion). Parking is in a parking garage right next to the church. I recommend the church post signs explaining what to do once you pull into the garage. I wandered a bit, finally walked around the side of the building, stepped over a couple of homeless people sleeping on the sidewalk (yes, something felt strange about stepping over a homeless person on the way to worship), and came in the back door. I take these little cards with me and drop them in the offering plate after I visit a church. I had forgotten my card, so I went back out and around the building, into the garage and got the card. I then realized some people were taking the elevator and I went that way. (Again, no real indication on which floor to take). I went up a level, walked around a corner and then found the entrance to the church, which is kind of counter-intuitive because it's the entrance that faces into the block rather than the street. Of course, then I couldn't find my way to the sanctuary! Fortunately, I looked lost enough that a very nice lady asked me if I needed help and she gave me directions to the sanctuary. So, I finally got back to my seat and was able to take in the atmosphere.
The building is beautiful. What is most interesting about the stained glass windows is the dates when they were dedicated. Many were in the 1800s. The church, on the inside, simply does not look that old. It's very well kept and, although large and breathtaking, really has a cozy feel to it. Another thing I noticed is that there was a large number of people of all ages. I have been in many Episcopal Churches in which the crowd appeared to be mostly elderly. This was definitely not the case. The people appeared fairly enthusiastic about being there.
The music in the church is outstanding and everyone in the service was singing. In fact, I initially thought they were piping in voices or had the choir miked with speakers in the back, but it was obvious that the singing was coming from all around. Throughout the service, the people were truly engaged with the Scripture readings, the responsive readings, the prayers, and the sermon. During "the peace" people were walking all over the building to greet each other. At one point, the person behind me introduced herself and asked if I was new. She said she used to attend here before moving and she missed the place very much. She went on to say how great a church it was. Again, lots of enthusiasm.
The service followed the Book of Common Prayer liturgy. Something they do that is the first time I've seen in an Episcopal Church is they put the entire liturgy in the bulletin. That way, you don't have to flip back-and-forth through the BCP to figure out where you are. In fact, a common joke among Episcopalians is you can tell who has been in the church the longest based on whether or not they have the liturgy memorized (that's the longest), whether or not they know how to follow the order of service (that's a little newer), or whether or not they are flipping back-and-forth lost most of the time (that's the newest people). Not having to navigate the BCP allows one to focus on the service. Very nice touch!
The Scripture reading from the Old Testament was about the bronze serpent Moses raised up for the Israelites to look to as a cure for the snakes biting them. The Gospel reading referenced it as well. The sermon was delivered by Amy Moehnke, who is the Director of Youth Ministries. She talked about how the people were told to look to the serpent rather than avoiding the snakes biting them and how this really required suspending rational thought and trusting in the cure. She went on to apply that passage to Jesus, as He did Himself, in the Gospel reading. It was a little surprising, and I think appropriate, to hear an Episcopal sermon telling people to suspend their rational mind and trust in something that doesn't make sense. Typically, the knock you hear from outsiders on Episcopalians revolves around their denial of some of the tenants of the faith due to rational and logical arguments. However, this sermon demonstrated this is most likely an exaggeration of Episcopal theology. Amy is an engaging speaker and was very enjoyable to listen to.
Communion was served. All who believe in Christ were invited to participate. Music continued through communion and then the service closed. I really enjoyed the service. It's great to be among people who, although following a structured liturgy, do not appear to be just "going through the motions." Put that in the context of this historic church, beautiful building with reminders of their past as well as evidence of a vibrant, present life, and you will find this to be a great place to worship. Add on top of that the inclusive, loving and inviting hearts of the people and I think you'll find this a place most anyone could call home. I will probably take advantage of the multiple opportunities each week to worship to return to this church again.
The building is beautiful. What is most interesting about the stained glass windows is the dates when they were dedicated. Many were in the 1800s. The church, on the inside, simply does not look that old. It's very well kept and, although large and breathtaking, really has a cozy feel to it. Another thing I noticed is that there was a large number of people of all ages. I have been in many Episcopal Churches in which the crowd appeared to be mostly elderly. This was definitely not the case. The people appeared fairly enthusiastic about being there.
The music in the church is outstanding and everyone in the service was singing. In fact, I initially thought they were piping in voices or had the choir miked with speakers in the back, but it was obvious that the singing was coming from all around. Throughout the service, the people were truly engaged with the Scripture readings, the responsive readings, the prayers, and the sermon. During "the peace" people were walking all over the building to greet each other. At one point, the person behind me introduced herself and asked if I was new. She said she used to attend here before moving and she missed the place very much. She went on to say how great a church it was. Again, lots of enthusiasm.
The service followed the Book of Common Prayer liturgy. Something they do that is the first time I've seen in an Episcopal Church is they put the entire liturgy in the bulletin. That way, you don't have to flip back-and-forth through the BCP to figure out where you are. In fact, a common joke among Episcopalians is you can tell who has been in the church the longest based on whether or not they have the liturgy memorized (that's the longest), whether or not they know how to follow the order of service (that's a little newer), or whether or not they are flipping back-and-forth lost most of the time (that's the newest people). Not having to navigate the BCP allows one to focus on the service. Very nice touch!
The Scripture reading from the Old Testament was about the bronze serpent Moses raised up for the Israelites to look to as a cure for the snakes biting them. The Gospel reading referenced it as well. The sermon was delivered by Amy Moehnke, who is the Director of Youth Ministries. She talked about how the people were told to look to the serpent rather than avoiding the snakes biting them and how this really required suspending rational thought and trusting in the cure. She went on to apply that passage to Jesus, as He did Himself, in the Gospel reading. It was a little surprising, and I think appropriate, to hear an Episcopal sermon telling people to suspend their rational mind and trust in something that doesn't make sense. Typically, the knock you hear from outsiders on Episcopalians revolves around their denial of some of the tenants of the faith due to rational and logical arguments. However, this sermon demonstrated this is most likely an exaggeration of Episcopal theology. Amy is an engaging speaker and was very enjoyable to listen to.
Communion was served. All who believe in Christ were invited to participate. Music continued through communion and then the service closed. I really enjoyed the service. It's great to be among people who, although following a structured liturgy, do not appear to be just "going through the motions." Put that in the context of this historic church, beautiful building with reminders of their past as well as evidence of a vibrant, present life, and you will find this to be a great place to worship. Add on top of that the inclusive, loving and inviting hearts of the people and I think you'll find this a place most anyone could call home. I will probably take advantage of the multiple opportunities each week to worship to return to this church again.
Austin City Life
To contact us Click HERE
Austin City Life meets on 6th Street at a club called The Parish (or The Parish room). It's an upstairs club that features live music during normal working hours. The name, of course, is perfect, for the gathering of Christians as well (although they have only been meeting here about two months, so I don't think there was anything purposeful in it).
It's a little odd to enter a church from 6th Street, climb stairs, and walk into a bar. However, somehow this works. It's warm and inviting. I was greeted immediately upon entering by several people, a coffee station was set up, and music was playing overhead. At least two of the people I spoke with appeared sincerely interested in how I found the place, if I'm looking for a church home, etc. In fact, I found myself kind of dancing around the fact I was here to chronicle this experience on the blog. I was also given a free copy of the book, Don't Waste Your Life, by John Piper. Although the website of the church states services begin at 10:00, people stood around and visited with one another until about 10:15 or 10:20. The church is mainly made up of young people and families. I saw some babies (they had two births this week), teens, and young adults. There were a few people over 50 or so, but not a large number. Overall, I would guess there were about 80 people in attendance (but as I've said before, I'm horrible at estimating numbers - it could have been 60 or 100).
The band that led worship was pretty amazing. I want to first say, up front, I'm not a big fan of female lead singers. Most of the music I grew up listening to, and even music I listen to now, is tilted more towards guitar and male singers. This band has two young ladies who sing and they were simply awesome. One of them had one of the most soulful, beautiful voices I have ever heard live. The other harmonized beautifully. I used the word "soulful" because the music was simply that - it moved the soul. I found myself a little surprised at how deeply I was moved by their voices, the lyrics, the music, and the people worshiping. We were invited to worship in whatever way we felt comfortable - stand, sit, hands raised, hands down, etc. As they played, people appeared completely oblivious of any judgment or pretense and just worshiped. I saw a couple of people on their knees, others stood and raised their hands, others sat quietly in their seat.
Let me take a sidebar here for a moment. One of the reasons I conduct this journey is because I love observing how people relate to God. I love joining them and being a part of that experience. I had difficulties observing people in this particular setting because I felt myself caught up in the experience part. I simply closed my eyes and felt the presence of God moving among His people.
After the music ended, one person got up and shared an experience she had ministering to international students at University of Texas. A visiting pastor got up and shared what was happening in their church in Belton (a church that shares a kinship with this one). One of the points being driven by the various people at the church was they had two purposes. To love God and, through that love, love people. The pastor, Jonathan Dodson, mentioned more than once the yearning to love those in the Austin area and see the culture of Austin changed by that love. He said that the city of Austin didn't need to hear the Gospel anymore. It needed to see it and it will see it through the love of the people who follow Christ.
Jonathan's sermon was the beginning of a series about the Three-Dimensional Gospel. In brief, the Gospel has three dimensions. It has a theological/doctrinal component. It has a personal component. Finally, it has a social component. The doctrinal component changes what you believe. The personal one changes who you are. The social one changes where you live. He made the point of stating that having only one component of the gospel indicates we aren't experiencing it to the fullest and it distorts the purpose of the the Good News. It is quite clear from his sermon and from activities going on with this church, that remaining outwardly focused is a very important part of their walk with God. For example, they have mission trips to Uganda and Mexico coming up. They talk openly about impacting those around them. The sermon made a point to indicate that a personal transformation alone, without an impact on people around you, is not enough. They talked about loving others and demonstrating that love. John is great to listen to. He is extremely sincere, kind of quirky, and really has a heart for what he does. There is nothing pretentious about him or the people in this church. The place is laid back (wear jeans, not a tie), open, honest, and much deeper that one might expect from a place that meets in a bar.
Putting together the whole experience, I think this church manages to do something I don't see very often. They deliberate deeply, not avoiding hard discussions and study, yet they don't take their Christianity at just an intellectual level. There is a very sincere, deep, quiet way in which they worship God both in spirit and in truth. That's not always easy. Churches often either are too caught up in their programs, too caught up in their theology, or too caught up in making their worship experience perfectly choreographed. This church just lets it happen and let's God do the rest. It's so peaceful and moving, I don't think one can go there and not leave unchanged in some way.
It's a little odd to enter a church from 6th Street, climb stairs, and walk into a bar. However, somehow this works. It's warm and inviting. I was greeted immediately upon entering by several people, a coffee station was set up, and music was playing overhead. At least two of the people I spoke with appeared sincerely interested in how I found the place, if I'm looking for a church home, etc. In fact, I found myself kind of dancing around the fact I was here to chronicle this experience on the blog. I was also given a free copy of the book, Don't Waste Your Life, by John Piper. Although the website of the church states services begin at 10:00, people stood around and visited with one another until about 10:15 or 10:20. The church is mainly made up of young people and families. I saw some babies (they had two births this week), teens, and young adults. There were a few people over 50 or so, but not a large number. Overall, I would guess there were about 80 people in attendance (but as I've said before, I'm horrible at estimating numbers - it could have been 60 or 100).
The band that led worship was pretty amazing. I want to first say, up front, I'm not a big fan of female lead singers. Most of the music I grew up listening to, and even music I listen to now, is tilted more towards guitar and male singers. This band has two young ladies who sing and they were simply awesome. One of them had one of the most soulful, beautiful voices I have ever heard live. The other harmonized beautifully. I used the word "soulful" because the music was simply that - it moved the soul. I found myself a little surprised at how deeply I was moved by their voices, the lyrics, the music, and the people worshiping. We were invited to worship in whatever way we felt comfortable - stand, sit, hands raised, hands down, etc. As they played, people appeared completely oblivious of any judgment or pretense and just worshiped. I saw a couple of people on their knees, others stood and raised their hands, others sat quietly in their seat.
Let me take a sidebar here for a moment. One of the reasons I conduct this journey is because I love observing how people relate to God. I love joining them and being a part of that experience. I had difficulties observing people in this particular setting because I felt myself caught up in the experience part. I simply closed my eyes and felt the presence of God moving among His people.
After the music ended, one person got up and shared an experience she had ministering to international students at University of Texas. A visiting pastor got up and shared what was happening in their church in Belton (a church that shares a kinship with this one). One of the points being driven by the various people at the church was they had two purposes. To love God and, through that love, love people. The pastor, Jonathan Dodson, mentioned more than once the yearning to love those in the Austin area and see the culture of Austin changed by that love. He said that the city of Austin didn't need to hear the Gospel anymore. It needed to see it and it will see it through the love of the people who follow Christ.
Jonathan's sermon was the beginning of a series about the Three-Dimensional Gospel. In brief, the Gospel has three dimensions. It has a theological/doctrinal component. It has a personal component. Finally, it has a social component. The doctrinal component changes what you believe. The personal one changes who you are. The social one changes where you live. He made the point of stating that having only one component of the gospel indicates we aren't experiencing it to the fullest and it distorts the purpose of the the Good News. It is quite clear from his sermon and from activities going on with this church, that remaining outwardly focused is a very important part of their walk with God. For example, they have mission trips to Uganda and Mexico coming up. They talk openly about impacting those around them. The sermon made a point to indicate that a personal transformation alone, without an impact on people around you, is not enough. They talked about loving others and demonstrating that love. John is great to listen to. He is extremely sincere, kind of quirky, and really has a heart for what he does. There is nothing pretentious about him or the people in this church. The place is laid back (wear jeans, not a tie), open, honest, and much deeper that one might expect from a place that meets in a bar.
Putting together the whole experience, I think this church manages to do something I don't see very often. They deliberate deeply, not avoiding hard discussions and study, yet they don't take their Christianity at just an intellectual level. There is a very sincere, deep, quiet way in which they worship God both in spirit and in truth. That's not always easy. Churches often either are too caught up in their programs, too caught up in their theology, or too caught up in making their worship experience perfectly choreographed. This church just lets it happen and let's God do the rest. It's so peaceful and moving, I don't think one can go there and not leave unchanged in some way.
Tragic News for Journey IFC and Austin
To contact us Click HERE
I have been a bit off the journey here lately - an unexpected divorce intervened in my otherwise easygoing life - and I felt the need to be in one place for while, so I've been attending Riverbend. Last Sunday morning, I found out that a valued member of the Austin Christian community, David Gentiles, died in a tragic accident.
You may recall my visit to Journey Imperfect Faith Community, in which David Gentiles spoke. I found David to be such a wonderful person to listen to. In fact, when I went back to Journey for Ash Wednesday, it was David who prayed over me, applied the ashes to my forehead and then gave me a big bear hug before I left the service. I'm not much of a hugger and was a little taken aback when this stocky man grabbed me, but he was so warm and loving, I couldn't help but be touched. This death touches so many people beyond the three girls he raised by himself and the group of people at Journey IFC. It's hard to know why the Lord lets things like this happen. Is there a lesson to be learned? Is death just an inevitable evil we must face and there is nothing more to say?
In pondering David's beautiful life and tragic death, I can see one thing that will be a challenge for those at Journey. Let me back up first and say that one of the distinguishing marks of Journey is that people of all backgrounds in all the various places in their lives are welcome. Questions are welcomed and sometimes the answers to those questions aren't easy. Is there really a God? Why does He allow such evil in the world? How do we know we are worshiping Him as He desires? Do you ever get mad at Him? Do you ever question His motives? These types of questions, the types we often ask deep within ourselves but fear ever expressing them outwardly, are not only welcome but encouraged at Journey. I imagine this means there are people there who are at various crossroads in their Christian lives. They may even teeter on the brink of unbelief, but something continues to draw them to the faith community.
David was a beacon among those people. He made Christianity make sense because you could see the love of Christ in his face, see the movement of God in his life. How will those people react to this tragedy? This may be one of the first big challenges for new or renewed Christians who have found Journey IFC a safe place to seek answers. I believe that, in 10 years or so, people will look back at Journey and see this moment, this period, as a turning point in the life of the people. How they respond and react, whether they grow colder or closer, may very well be a reaction to David's life and death. I believe they will come out better. I have to believe that because I've seen the love they have for one another and I'm sure David's prayers are still felt over the people as he communes with God in a very real and new way. His journey with them is over, but his journey with God has just moved to a new level. This is, indeed, a very important time for Journey and it is an opportunity for them to feel the love of God through the tears and loss.
I've been thinking about them lately. I'll have to try to get over there in the new year. I believe I will see a hurt community that is strengthened through their trial.
Lord, grant your servant, David Gentiles, peace as he now rests in your presence, with all the saints of God.
You may recall my visit to Journey Imperfect Faith Community, in which David Gentiles spoke. I found David to be such a wonderful person to listen to. In fact, when I went back to Journey for Ash Wednesday, it was David who prayed over me, applied the ashes to my forehead and then gave me a big bear hug before I left the service. I'm not much of a hugger and was a little taken aback when this stocky man grabbed me, but he was so warm and loving, I couldn't help but be touched. This death touches so many people beyond the three girls he raised by himself and the group of people at Journey IFC. It's hard to know why the Lord lets things like this happen. Is there a lesson to be learned? Is death just an inevitable evil we must face and there is nothing more to say?
In pondering David's beautiful life and tragic death, I can see one thing that will be a challenge for those at Journey. Let me back up first and say that one of the distinguishing marks of Journey is that people of all backgrounds in all the various places in their lives are welcome. Questions are welcomed and sometimes the answers to those questions aren't easy. Is there really a God? Why does He allow such evil in the world? How do we know we are worshiping Him as He desires? Do you ever get mad at Him? Do you ever question His motives? These types of questions, the types we often ask deep within ourselves but fear ever expressing them outwardly, are not only welcome but encouraged at Journey. I imagine this means there are people there who are at various crossroads in their Christian lives. They may even teeter on the brink of unbelief, but something continues to draw them to the faith community.
David was a beacon among those people. He made Christianity make sense because you could see the love of Christ in his face, see the movement of God in his life. How will those people react to this tragedy? This may be one of the first big challenges for new or renewed Christians who have found Journey IFC a safe place to seek answers. I believe that, in 10 years or so, people will look back at Journey and see this moment, this period, as a turning point in the life of the people. How they respond and react, whether they grow colder or closer, may very well be a reaction to David's life and death. I believe they will come out better. I have to believe that because I've seen the love they have for one another and I'm sure David's prayers are still felt over the people as he communes with God in a very real and new way. His journey with them is over, but his journey with God has just moved to a new level. This is, indeed, a very important time for Journey and it is an opportunity for them to feel the love of God through the tears and loss.
I've been thinking about them lately. I'll have to try to get over there in the new year. I believe I will see a hurt community that is strengthened through their trial.
Lord, grant your servant, David Gentiles, peace as he now rests in your presence, with all the saints of God.
8 Temmuz 2012 Pazar
Course Correction
To contact us Click HERE
Back in my flying days, part of the pre-flight routine was to make sure my instruments were properly calibrated. If I was making a cross-country flight, I was particularly interested in my directional indicator being correct. On a long flight, it was important to occasionally re-adjust the directional indicator or I would find myself off-course and… well, lost.
Gateway is on a journey. Our journey is for a life-time. Because of the long-distant journey, we must make sure we are on the right course. We must regularly double check our directional indicator. Just a few degrees of course can have devastating effects. There have been moments that we as a church have gotten off course. That is why this past Sunday I took the time to calibrate our church’s compass.
As part of this course correction, we are returning to who we really are as a church. We are body of believers who love God and love people. We love to see God change lives. In fact, this past Sunday we reminded ourselves why we even exist.
Gateway exists to glorify God by equipping people to become passionately committed to Christ.
There are several initiatives we are taking this year. We are going to focus on a few basic, yet crucial areas. I want to lead us to become…
• People of Prayer
• People of the Book
• People with Purpose
• People with Passion
Jesus made it clear what the most important commands were – Loving God with all your being and loving others as yourself. He also gave us his Great Commission – make disciples.
As your pastor, it is my passion that as a church body, we will have a great commitment to the great commandments and the great commission with great passion. When we do this, God will grow Gateway into a Great Church. We must do our part and He will bring the growth!
Do you need some motivation? Then constantly think about the 35,000 un-churched and de-churched people who are within a five mile radius of Gateway. God certainly thinks about them. He thinks about them constantly. And so must we!
Back in my flying days, part of the pre-flight routine was to make sure my instruments were properly calibrated. If I was making a cross-country flight, I was particularly interested in my directional indicator being correct. On a long flight, it was important to occasionally re-adjust the directional indicator or I would find myself off-course and… well, lost.
Gateway is on a journey. Our journey is for a life-time. Because of the long-distant journey, we must make sure we are on the right course. We must regularly double check our directional indicator. Just a few degrees of course can have devastating effects. There have been moments that we as a church have gotten off course. That is why this past Sunday I took the time to calibrate our church’s compass.
As part of this course correction, we are returning to who we really are as a church. We are body of believers who love God and love people. We love to see God change lives. In fact, this past Sunday we reminded ourselves why we even exist.
Gateway exists to glorify God by equipping people to become passionately committed to Christ.
There are several initiatives we are taking this year. We are going to focus on a few basic, yet crucial areas. I want to lead us to become…
• People of Prayer
• People of the Book
• People with Purpose
• People with Passion
Jesus made it clear what the most important commands were – Loving God with all your being and loving others as yourself. He also gave us his Great Commission – make disciples.
As your pastor, it is my passion that as a church body, we will have a great commitment to the great commandments and the great commission with great passion. When we do this, God will grow Gateway into a Great Church. We must do our part and He will bring the growth!
Do you need some motivation? Then constantly think about the 35,000 un-churched and de-churched people who are within a five mile radius of Gateway. God certainly thinks about them. He thinks about them constantly. And so must we!
Meet Tagg Wolverton, our Sr. Youth Pastor & family!
To contact us Click HERE
Tagg & Susan; Graeme (10 years old, 5th grade); Olivia (8 years old, 3rd grade); Anna (12 years old, 7th grade); Ben (14 years old, 8th grade).
God has shown tremendous favor to Gateway by sending us Tagg Wolverton as our next Senior Youth Pastor. For the past several months your search team has diligently prayed and sought God’s man for GBC. God’s Spirit made us of one mind, heart and spirit. It was a blessing to me to work with this team: Linda Gee, Kris Corley, Renee Goodman, Larry Wagner, Joel Baker, Nick Stoia, Jeff Douglas and Ronald Flynn.
Tagg and his family will be with us this Sunday and then will begin his new position the week of February 21st. Here are a few facts about Tagg:
Ministry Experience
• Most recently served with Greater Europe Missions in the Netherlands. He was the Youth Ministry Team Leader and directed the Youth Ministry Development.
• Served 11 years at Brookwood Church in Greenville, SC as the Minister to Students. His responsibilities included middle school through college students. The ministry grew from 11 students to over 450 students.
• Served as the Worship Leader and Associate Pastor of Springbrook Baptist Church, Anderson SC.
• Served as the College Minister at First Baptist Church, Arlington, TX.
• Since 2004 has served as a mentor for Purpose Driven Youth Ministry.
• Served on the Programming Staff for Centrifuge Summer Camps.
Education
• Is in the process of finishing his PhD from the Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, Netherlands.
• Has both a Masters of Theology and a Research Masters in Theology from Vrije Universiteit.
• Has a Masters of Divinity with Biblical Languages from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX
• Has a Bachelor of Science from Auburn University, Auburn, AL
Tagg’s interest includes music, fly fishing, reading and snow skiing.
I want to say a big thanks to Dr. David Olshine of CIU for serving as our interim director for our student ministry and as a consultant for our search team.
I also want to give a HUGE – WE ARE INCREDABLY PROUD OF YOU to Amanda Brown, our female youth director. She has been amazing during the interim period. We love you Amanda… you have a special place in our heart! Our students love you!!
Send Tagg and his family a big Gateway welcome email to info@taggwolverton.com
Tagg & Susan; Graeme (10 years old, 5th grade); Olivia (8 years old, 3rd grade); Anna (12 years old, 7th grade); Ben (14 years old, 8th grade).God has shown tremendous favor to Gateway by sending us Tagg Wolverton as our next Senior Youth Pastor. For the past several months your search team has diligently prayed and sought God’s man for GBC. God’s Spirit made us of one mind, heart and spirit. It was a blessing to me to work with this team: Linda Gee, Kris Corley, Renee Goodman, Larry Wagner, Joel Baker, Nick Stoia, Jeff Douglas and Ronald Flynn.
Tagg and his family will be with us this Sunday and then will begin his new position the week of February 21st. Here are a few facts about Tagg:
Ministry Experience
• Most recently served with Greater Europe Missions in the Netherlands. He was the Youth Ministry Team Leader and directed the Youth Ministry Development.
• Served 11 years at Brookwood Church in Greenville, SC as the Minister to Students. His responsibilities included middle school through college students. The ministry grew from 11 students to over 450 students.
• Served as the Worship Leader and Associate Pastor of Springbrook Baptist Church, Anderson SC.
• Served as the College Minister at First Baptist Church, Arlington, TX.
• Since 2004 has served as a mentor for Purpose Driven Youth Ministry.
• Served on the Programming Staff for Centrifuge Summer Camps.
Education
• Is in the process of finishing his PhD from the Vrije Universiteit, Amsterdam, Netherlands.
• Has both a Masters of Theology and a Research Masters in Theology from Vrije Universiteit.
• Has a Masters of Divinity with Biblical Languages from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX
• Has a Bachelor of Science from Auburn University, Auburn, AL
Tagg’s interest includes music, fly fishing, reading and snow skiing.
I want to say a big thanks to Dr. David Olshine of CIU for serving as our interim director for our student ministry and as a consultant for our search team.
I also want to give a HUGE – WE ARE INCREDABLY PROUD OF YOU to Amanda Brown, our female youth director. She has been amazing during the interim period. We love you Amanda… you have a special place in our heart! Our students love you!!
Send Tagg and his family a big Gateway welcome email to info@taggwolverton.com
Passive Parenting
To contact us Click HERE
The following is from a blog that I follow by James Emery White. I find that his writings are usually right on target. This is one that all parents need to read...
The average child between the age of 8-18 “now spends practically every waking minute – except for the time in school – using a smart phone, computer, television or other electronic device” according to a study that didn’t receive the wide discussion it deserved when released in 2010 by the Kaiser Family Foundation.
Specifically, they spend more than seven and a half hours a day with such devices. And that doesn’t count the 1.5 hours spent texting, or the half-hour they talk on their cell phones.
And because they multi-task (for example, surfing the net while listening to their iPod), they manage cramming nearly 11 hours of media content into that seven and a half hours.
The study also found that heavy media use is associated with behavior problems, poor grades and obesity. According to the study, the “heaviest media users were also more likely to report that they were bored or sad, or that they got into trouble, did not get along well with their parents and were not happy at school.”
Despite the alarming amount of time being spent with media, and the negatives associated with its heavy use, Dr. Michael Rich (a pediatrician at Children’s Hospital Boston who directs the Center on Media and Child Health) said that it was time to stop arguing over whether it was good or bad and accept it as part of children’s environment.
I’m sorry. Excuse me?
Thank goodness for the simple sanity of Victoria Rideout, a Kaiser vice president and lead author of the study, who said that although it has become harder for parents to control what their children do, they can still have an effect.
“They can still make rules and it still makes a difference.”
Precisely.
An increasing number of parents today seem to throw up their hands in defeat in the face of their cultural surroundings as if they are powerless to do anything about their child’s friends, education and use of media.
Let’s call it what it is: passive parenting.
A passive parent is someone who sees what needs to be addressed, sees what needs to be attended, and doesn’t attend to it. “Giving in” and “going along” becomes paramount to their thinking.
“You’re wearing that? Well, I guess everyone is.”
“You want to watch what? Well, if everyone is.”
“You want to do what? Well, if the others are.”
In truth, they are abdicating their role. They are not doing what they are called to do as a parent. The assumption with parenting is simple: your children are immature and need your maturity. Yet some parents are more eager to be liked, or accepted by their kids, than they are to be parents to their kids.
So instead of being active, they’re passive.
Let me state what I hope is obvious: seven and a half hours a day with media is wrong. No parent should allow it. Force them (yes, I said “force”) to read, to use their imagination, to get outside and play with a dog or participate in a sport.
I know, that means becoming an active parent.
But unless I’m mistaken, that’s what parenting is about.
James Emery White
Sources
Tamar Lewin, “Children Awake? Then They’re Probably Online,” The New York Times, Wednesday, January 20, 2010, p. A1 and A3. Greg Toppo, “Kids’ digital day: Almost 8 hours,” USA Today, Wednesday, January 20, 2010, p. 1A.
Matt Richtel, “Growing Up Digital, Wired for Distraction,” The New York Times, Sunday, November 21, 2010, p. A1 and A20.
Editor’s Note
To enjoy a free subscription to the Church and Culture blog, log-on to www.churchandculture.org where you can post your comments on this blog, view past blogs in our archive and read the latest church and culture news from around the world.
The average child between the age of 8-18 “now spends practically every waking minute – except for the time in school – using a smart phone, computer, television or other electronic device” according to a study that didn’t receive the wide discussion it deserved when released in 2010 by the Kaiser Family Foundation.
Specifically, they spend more than seven and a half hours a day with such devices. And that doesn’t count the 1.5 hours spent texting, or the half-hour they talk on their cell phones.
And because they multi-task (for example, surfing the net while listening to their iPod), they manage cramming nearly 11 hours of media content into that seven and a half hours.
The study also found that heavy media use is associated with behavior problems, poor grades and obesity. According to the study, the “heaviest media users were also more likely to report that they were bored or sad, or that they got into trouble, did not get along well with their parents and were not happy at school.”
Despite the alarming amount of time being spent with media, and the negatives associated with its heavy use, Dr. Michael Rich (a pediatrician at Children’s Hospital Boston who directs the Center on Media and Child Health) said that it was time to stop arguing over whether it was good or bad and accept it as part of children’s environment.
I’m sorry. Excuse me?
Thank goodness for the simple sanity of Victoria Rideout, a Kaiser vice president and lead author of the study, who said that although it has become harder for parents to control what their children do, they can still have an effect.
“They can still make rules and it still makes a difference.”
Precisely.
An increasing number of parents today seem to throw up their hands in defeat in the face of their cultural surroundings as if they are powerless to do anything about their child’s friends, education and use of media.
Let’s call it what it is: passive parenting.
A passive parent is someone who sees what needs to be addressed, sees what needs to be attended, and doesn’t attend to it. “Giving in” and “going along” becomes paramount to their thinking.
“You’re wearing that? Well, I guess everyone is.”
“You want to watch what? Well, if everyone is.”
“You want to do what? Well, if the others are.”
In truth, they are abdicating their role. They are not doing what they are called to do as a parent. The assumption with parenting is simple: your children are immature and need your maturity. Yet some parents are more eager to be liked, or accepted by their kids, than they are to be parents to their kids.
So instead of being active, they’re passive.
Let me state what I hope is obvious: seven and a half hours a day with media is wrong. No parent should allow it. Force them (yes, I said “force”) to read, to use their imagination, to get outside and play with a dog or participate in a sport.
I know, that means becoming an active parent.
But unless I’m mistaken, that’s what parenting is about.
James Emery White
Sources
Tamar Lewin, “Children Awake? Then They’re Probably Online,” The New York Times, Wednesday, January 20, 2010, p. A1 and A3. Greg Toppo, “Kids’ digital day: Almost 8 hours,” USA Today, Wednesday, January 20, 2010, p. 1A.
Matt Richtel, “Growing Up Digital, Wired for Distraction,” The New York Times, Sunday, November 21, 2010, p. A1 and A20.
Editor’s Note
To enjoy a free subscription to the Church and Culture blog, log-on to www.churchandculture.org where you can post your comments on this blog, view past blogs in our archive and read the latest church and culture news from around the world.
Grandmother
To contact us Click HERE
I was thinking of my Grandmother today. Just a few weeks after her 102nd birthday (which was February 28, 2011) she went home to be with the Lord. She was ready for death... and most importantly she was ready for heaven. Always thinking ahead, Grandmother had planned out her funeral. She made all of the arrangements. She planned for me to conduct her memorial service. I didn't know about this until my uncle told me after she passed away. It was an honor for me. The picture above was taken on her 102nd birthday. My last visit with her was just a few days prior. Grandmother Brock was my last grandparent and I will miss her.
Teddy Roosevelt was President when Grandmother Brock was born. Only 8% of all the homes in America had a telephone. There were 46 states and 8,000 registered cars in the entire United States. Gas was 6 cents per gallon. She was born 6 years after the Wright Brothers’ flight at Kitty Hawk; 2 years after the Model T Ford was produced; and 1 year before the Boy Scouts began. She was 18 when Charles Lindbergh made his historic non-stop flight over the Atlantic Ocean and 20 years old when the Stock Market crashed and began the Great Depression.
When she was born, marijuana, heroin, and morphine were all sold over the counter at the local drugstore. No wonder they called it the “good ‘ole days!”
My family lives long. I grew up with most of my great-grandparents. My last great-grandparent died when I was in my twenties. It was Grandmother Brock's mother. I was 32 years old when my first grandparent passed away.
Each time we visited Grandmother Brock with my kids, we would always leave laughing. She was feisty and funny. Her memory was amazing. She lived in the same house for over 70 years. She could tell you how much she paid for it; who painted it the very first time; how much the paint cost… on and on.
One time when she was in her early nineties, she found a man going through her bedroom. She confronted him and told him to get out. She gave him $20 and said “that’s all I have, so take it and get out.” (She actually had a great deal of money…). The intruder told her, “I can’t take your last $20.” She said, “I want you to take it and get out of my house!” The next day, I called her and asked if she was okay. She said yes. “Were you scared?” I will never forget her reply. “No, I wasn’t scared. I was mad!” Then she really got my attention when she said “But I’m ready if he comes back.” “What do you mean grandmother?” Then she really, really got my attention. “I’ve got a shooter!!” I wanted to clarify what I had just heard, “You mean you have a gun?” “I sure do. And I am ready!” Wow! How would you like to face a pistol packing 90 year old grandmother? Of course it would have taken her ten minutes to pull the trigger.
Well, I immediately called my Uncle Gary who took care of Grandmother. “Gary, you need to get over to Grandmother’s house. She has a gun and she is ready to use it!” He laughed… “I’ve already taken care of it.”
Grandmother loved her Lord and loved her church. She was faithful to both. However, Grandmother Brock did have one serious vice. She loved TV wrestling. She would tell me, "Donald, I know its not real, but it sure is fun to watch." When Meredith met Grandmother Brock for the first time, she told Meredith, "You should think about becoming a TV wrestler..." We laughed for a long time.
Grandmother lived by herself in her home until she was 100 years old at which time she finally moved into a nursing home… but she never lost her humor or her feistiness. On one of my last visits to her I said, “Grandmother, its Donald.” She looked me straight into my eyes and got mad, “I know who you are!” Then just to prove the point she asked, “How is Mary, Katie, Mack and Meredith?” Boy, she quickly put me in my place. I'm surprised she didn't ask me about the dog.
I will miss talking to Grandmother about my Dad… her first born. The only time I ever saw my her cry was the night Dad died. She told me many times, “Mack was your Grandfather’s very best friend. They were more like brothers than father and son. Mack always took care of us.”
Thanks Grandmother for finishing well! I will see you one day soon.
Satan's Favorite Fiery Darts
To contact us Click HERE
The Devil knows you very well. He knows your weaknesses. He knows which buttons to push. But thankfully, as a believer, you have everything you need. The Devil can not do one thing to you... unless you let him.
Inaddition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrowsof the devil. Ephesians 6:16
Here are some of his favorites...
1. Unforgiveness - holding a grudge and being unwilling to forgive someone who has hurt you.
Instead,be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as Godthrough Christ has forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
2. Anger - There is a righteous anger, but this is not that. Unrighteous Anger is usually personal...
And“don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while youare still angry, for anger gives a foothold to the devil. Ephesians 4:26–27
Butnow is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, anddirty language. Colossians 3:8
3. Doubt - This was the very first dart shot by Satan... He got Eve to doubt God. He loves to use this one.
Theserpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did Godreally say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”Genesis 3:1
4. Pride - A desire to have all the attention... "Hey, look at me and my accomplishments!" This was Satan's first sin.
Buthe gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As theScriptures say, “God opposes the proud but favors the humble.” So humble yourselves before God. Resist thedevil, and he will flee from you. James 4:6–7
5. Unholy Living - In other words... anything that is not like Jesus Christ.
Soyou must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways ofliving to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything youdo, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” 1 Peter1:14–16
Dearfriends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away fromworldly desires that wage war against your very souls. 1 Peter 2:11
6. Creating Dissension - Do you like causing friction between friends? At work? At church? At school?
Obeyyour spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over yoursouls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joyand not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Hebrews13:17
7. Adversity - This is when tough things happen to you that you have no control over... you didn't cause it... you didn't ask for it... it just happened.
Ihave told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you willhave many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome theworld.” John 16:33
So which dart has your name on it?
The Devil knows you very well. He knows your weaknesses. He knows which buttons to push. But thankfully, as a believer, you have everything you need. The Devil can not do one thing to you... unless you let him.
Inaddition to all of these, hold up the shield of faith to stop the fiery arrowsof the devil. Ephesians 6:16
1. Unforgiveness - holding a grudge and being unwilling to forgive someone who has hurt you.
Instead,be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as Godthrough Christ has forgiven you. Ephesians 4:32
2. Anger - There is a righteous anger, but this is not that. Unrighteous Anger is usually personal...
And“don’t sin by letting anger control you.” Don’t let the sun go down while youare still angry, for anger gives a foothold to the devil. Ephesians 4:26–27
Butnow is the time to get rid of anger, rage, malicious behavior, slander, anddirty language. Colossians 3:8
3. Doubt - This was the very first dart shot by Satan... He got Eve to doubt God. He loves to use this one.
Theserpent was the shrewdest of all the wild animals the Lord God had made. One day he asked the woman, “Did Godreally say you must not eat the fruit from any of the trees in the garden?”Genesis 3:1
4. Pride - A desire to have all the attention... "Hey, look at me and my accomplishments!" This was Satan's first sin.
Buthe gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As theScriptures say, “God opposes the proud but favors the humble.” So humble yourselves before God. Resist thedevil, and he will flee from you. James 4:6–7
5. Unholy Living - In other words... anything that is not like Jesus Christ.
Soyou must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways ofliving to satisfy your own desires. You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything youdo, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” 1 Peter1:14–16
Dearfriends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away fromworldly desires that wage war against your very souls. 1 Peter 2:11
6. Creating Dissension - Do you like causing friction between friends? At work? At church? At school?
Obeyyour spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over yoursouls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joyand not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. Hebrews13:17
7. Adversity - This is when tough things happen to you that you have no control over... you didn't cause it... you didn't ask for it... it just happened.
Ihave told you all this so that you may have peace in me. Here on earth you willhave many trials and sorrows. But take heart, because I have overcome theworld.” John 16:33
So which dart has your name on it?
7 Temmuz 2012 Cumartesi
NewSpring and Perry Noble Resort to False Claims of South Carolina Church Attendance to Raise Funds to Build More Satellite Churches
To contact us Click HERE
"85% of our state does not attend church"-------------------"Between now and July 1st, I'm asking everyone in this church to do the best you can to make the largest financial contribution to a church you've ever made in your life. For some of you that might be twenty bucks. Amen and praise God. But for some of you that could be ten million." Perry Noble appealing for large contributions on "Take the Land" video---------------------------
It is time for South Carolinians to contact the Federal Trade Commission to report deceptive fund raising practices of NewSpring Church. I'm not talking about the ridiculous "first fruits tithing" doctrine Perry Noble uses to scare people into forking over 10% of their income else God will bring curses on family and fortune. I'm talking about NewSpring making false claims in their latest fund raising video (see below) about church attendance in South Carolina to try to create an urgency in order to raise millions of dollars to "Take the Land".
Perry Noble and NewSpring church are trying to raise millions of dollars under the false claim that only 15% of people in South Carolina attend church. As you can see in the graphic above, this is absolutely false and misleading. According to Gallup, the actual figure is 56% - making South Carolina the state with the third highest church attendance! NewSpring's claim is so blatantly false that it defies and explanation. Kudos to Chris Rosebrough of Pirate Christian Radio for being all over this story.
If only 15% of people attended church in South Carolina, that would put them well below Vermont, who Gallup says is the state with the lowest percentage of church attenders at 23%. Gosh, even people in California attend church at a 35% clip, Perry!
And the 56% statistic from Gallup is those who responded that they attend church "every week" or "almost every week" - we're talking regular church attenders here! Now it is true that Gallup lumps in those who say they attend synagogue or mosque in their "church attendance" figures. But U.S. Census numbers indicate that 93% of people in South Carolina consider themselves "Christian", and 84% are "Protestant". So this doesn't even come close to explaining the huge gap between NewSpring's 15% and Gallup's 56%.
It is not uncommon to see preachers purposely fib to their congregations. But here, Perry Noble takes it to a much higher level. Perry is looking straight into the camera and making an appeal for people to give millions of dollars, right after the video creates a false sense of urgency with the claim that only 15% of people in their state attend church.
Fact is, South Carolina is absolutely chock full of churches (go to Google Maps, and search "South Carolina churches" and you will see what I mean - you will be shocked). Not ones that Perry would approve of I'm sure. After all they are probably boring and dull churches, don't have rock bands, and some of the ministers wear robes instead of skinny jeans. And I'm certain that almost none of them have opened an Easter service with AC/DC's "Highway to Hell".
Too bad the Federal Trade Commission doesn't investigate churches and clergy for their false claims in efforts to get people to fork over their money to their ministries. If any other non-profit were to raise money using the tactics of many modern evangelicals, complaints would be filed with the FTC, an investigation would be done, and charges would be filed. While we long have accepted the prosperity TV preachers will lie about giving money to their ministry causing the "windows of heaven" to open and financial blessings to flow, we don't expect evangelical churches to lie about people in their state to raise money to build more churches in a saturated market.
But this is the trend - we are in the era of church marketing. These are no longer churches ministering to people - they are huge businesses run by CEO's with egos to match, who compete fiercely for market share. How else do mega churches in Jacksonville justify building "satellite" churches when there is one on nearly every corner?
"85% of our state does not attend church"-------------------"Between now and July 1st, I'm asking everyone in this church to do the best you can to make the largest financial contribution to a church you've ever made in your life. For some of you that might be twenty bucks. Amen and praise God. But for some of you that could be ten million." Perry Noble appealing for large contributions on "Take the Land" video---------------------------It is time for South Carolinians to contact the Federal Trade Commission to report deceptive fund raising practices of NewSpring Church. I'm not talking about the ridiculous "first fruits tithing" doctrine Perry Noble uses to scare people into forking over 10% of their income else God will bring curses on family and fortune. I'm talking about NewSpring making false claims in their latest fund raising video (see below) about church attendance in South Carolina to try to create an urgency in order to raise millions of dollars to "Take the Land".
Perry Noble and NewSpring church are trying to raise millions of dollars under the false claim that only 15% of people in South Carolina attend church. As you can see in the graphic above, this is absolutely false and misleading. According to Gallup, the actual figure is 56% - making South Carolina the state with the third highest church attendance! NewSpring's claim is so blatantly false that it defies and explanation. Kudos to Chris Rosebrough of Pirate Christian Radio for being all over this story.
If only 15% of people attended church in South Carolina, that would put them well below Vermont, who Gallup says is the state with the lowest percentage of church attenders at 23%. Gosh, even people in California attend church at a 35% clip, Perry!
And the 56% statistic from Gallup is those who responded that they attend church "every week" or "almost every week" - we're talking regular church attenders here! Now it is true that Gallup lumps in those who say they attend synagogue or mosque in their "church attendance" figures. But U.S. Census numbers indicate that 93% of people in South Carolina consider themselves "Christian", and 84% are "Protestant". So this doesn't even come close to explaining the huge gap between NewSpring's 15% and Gallup's 56%.
It is not uncommon to see preachers purposely fib to their congregations. But here, Perry Noble takes it to a much higher level. Perry is looking straight into the camera and making an appeal for people to give millions of dollars, right after the video creates a false sense of urgency with the claim that only 15% of people in their state attend church. Fact is, South Carolina is absolutely chock full of churches (go to Google Maps, and search "South Carolina churches" and you will see what I mean - you will be shocked). Not ones that Perry would approve of I'm sure. After all they are probably boring and dull churches, don't have rock bands, and some of the ministers wear robes instead of skinny jeans. And I'm certain that almost none of them have opened an Easter service with AC/DC's "Highway to Hell".
Too bad the Federal Trade Commission doesn't investigate churches and clergy for their false claims in efforts to get people to fork over their money to their ministries. If any other non-profit were to raise money using the tactics of many modern evangelicals, complaints would be filed with the FTC, an investigation would be done, and charges would be filed. While we long have accepted the prosperity TV preachers will lie about giving money to their ministry causing the "windows of heaven" to open and financial blessings to flow, we don't expect evangelical churches to lie about people in their state to raise money to build more churches in a saturated market.
But this is the trend - we are in the era of church marketing. These are no longer churches ministering to people - they are huge businesses run by CEO's with egos to match, who compete fiercely for market share. How else do mega churches in Jacksonville justify building "satellite" churches when there is one on nearly every corner?
Versification
To contact us Click HERE
Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2011)
Merge-arrow.svg
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Chapters and verses of the Bible. (Discuss) Proposed since June 2011.
For other uses, see Versification.
Versification is the process by which a text such as the Bible is divided into chapters and verses. The Bible was originally written without these, and thus versification forms part of the Bible's paratext.
[edit] 1 History
The verses in the Hebrew Bible were added by the Masoretes, while verse numbering came later when Robert Estienne introduced them into his 1551 edition of the Greek New Testament and then into his French translation of the whole Bible.
[edit] 2 Implications
Versification makes particular sections of the Bible easier to find and to memorise. The arbitrary division of the new testament into verses in the 16th century is sometimes mistakenly interpreted as if the placement of this verse numbering system were equivalent to a placement of logical pauses (commas) or full stops (periods).
[edit] 3 External links
Alternate Versification – CrossWire Bible Society wiki
Stub icon This religion-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
Edit this page | Stop watching | Discuss this page | Page history | What links here | Related changes
| Move this page
Main Page | About Wikipedia |
Find:
This page was last modified on 2011-06-20 at 19:50:31.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Contact us
Revision history of Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
View logs for this page
Browse history From year (and earlier): From month (and earlier): Tag filter: Deleted only
For any version listed below, click on its date to view it. For more help, see Help:Page history and Help:Edit summary.
External tools: Revision history statistics · Contributors · Revision history search · Number of watchers · Page view statistics (cur) = difference from current version, (prev) = difference from preceding version, m = minor edit, → = section edit, ← = automatic edit summary
(cur | prev) 12:43, 30 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (46 bytes) (merged to Chapters and verses of the Bible so redirect there) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:50, 20 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (1,276 bytes) (tag as unreferenced, propose merge to Chapters and verses of the Bible) (undo)
(cur | prev) 07:33, 30 October 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,149 bytes) (added category) (undo)
(cur | prev) 05:45, 28 September 2010 Rich Farmbrough (talk | contribs) m (1,174 bytes) (→External links: Tag uncat using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 01:45, 24 September 2010 RussBot (talk | contribs) m (1,130 bytes) (Robot: Editing intentional link to disambiguation page in hatnote per WP:INTDABLINK (explanation)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 05:06, 14 September 2010 Hmains (talk | contribs) m (1,096 bytes) (→Implications: copyedit, MOS and or AWB general fixes using AWB (7069)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 23:39, 19 May 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,090 bytes) (added hatnote) (undo)
(cur | prev) 23:35, 19 May 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,060 bytes) (Copied old version of Versification, now that this has become a disambiguation page)
Talk:Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
Bible.malmesbury.arp.jpg Bible portal
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
NA This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
Low This page has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This page is supported by Biblical criticism work group (marked as Low-importance).
[edit] Proposed merger
I don't see the point of this page, and therefore propose that it be merged and redirected to Chapters and verses of the Bible. The external link currently provided does not serve as a citation for the page content, and is itself so arcane and technical that it is unlikely to help most readers. Therefore "forms part of the Bible's paratext" may be the only bit worth merging. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Merge: In looking at the history of this article, my guess is that original wiki editor was not aware of Chapters and Verses of the Bible. Whilst the two topics do refer to different things, given the history of both articles, I doubt either will be developed well enough for the general reader to grok the difference between the two topics. p (talk) 18:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes Done The original version did include a link to that page. I guess this page was created for the purpose of disambiguation; if so, a redirect achieves that. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Edit this page | Stop watching | View article | Page history | What links here | Related changes
| Move this page
Main Page | About Wikipedia |
Find:
This page was last modified on 2011-06-30 at 14:17:39.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Contact us
Revision history of Talk:Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
View logs for this page
Browse history From year (and earlier): From month (and earlier): Tag filter: Deleted only
For any version listed below, click on its date to view it. For more help, see Help:Page history and Help:Edit summary.
External tools: Revision history statistics · Contributors · Revision history search · Number of watchers · Page view statistics (cur) = difference from current version, (prev) = difference from preceding version, m = minor edit, → = section edit, ← = automatic edit summary
(cur | prev) 14:17, 30 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (1,391 bytes) (merger done) (undo)
(cur | prev) 18:13, 29 June 2011 Pseudo daoist (talk | contribs) (1,093 bytes) (→Proposed merger: Merge) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:56, 20 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (653 bytes) (→Proposed merger: new section) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:04, 22 April 2011 Pseudo daoist (talk | contribs) (141 bytes) (Bible Portal, Christianity Portal)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2011)
Merge-arrow.svg
It has been suggested that this article or section be merged into Chapters and verses of the Bible. (Discuss) Proposed since June 2011.
For other uses, see Versification.
Versification is the process by which a text such as the Bible is divided into chapters and verses. The Bible was originally written without these, and thus versification forms part of the Bible's paratext.
[edit] 1 History
The verses in the Hebrew Bible were added by the Masoretes, while verse numbering came later when Robert Estienne introduced them into his 1551 edition of the Greek New Testament and then into his French translation of the whole Bible.
[edit] 2 Implications
Versification makes particular sections of the Bible easier to find and to memorise. The arbitrary division of the new testament into verses in the 16th century is sometimes mistakenly interpreted as if the placement of this verse numbering system were equivalent to a placement of logical pauses (commas) or full stops (periods).
[edit] 3 External links
Alternate Versification – CrossWire Bible Society wiki
Stub icon This religion-related article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
Edit this page | Stop watching | Discuss this page | Page history | What links here | Related changes
| Move this page
Main Page | About Wikipedia |
Find:
This page was last modified on 2011-06-20 at 19:50:31.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Contact us
Revision history of Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
View logs for this page
Browse history From year (and earlier): From month (and earlier): Tag filter: Deleted only
For any version listed below, click on its date to view it. For more help, see Help:Page history and Help:Edit summary.
External tools: Revision history statistics · Contributors · Revision history search · Number of watchers · Page view statistics (cur) = difference from current version, (prev) = difference from preceding version, m = minor edit, → = section edit, ← = automatic edit summary
(cur | prev) 12:43, 30 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (46 bytes) (merged to Chapters and verses of the Bible so redirect there) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:50, 20 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (1,276 bytes) (tag as unreferenced, propose merge to Chapters and verses of the Bible) (undo)
(cur | prev) 07:33, 30 October 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,149 bytes) (added category) (undo)
(cur | prev) 05:45, 28 September 2010 Rich Farmbrough (talk | contribs) m (1,174 bytes) (→External links: Tag uncat using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 01:45, 24 September 2010 RussBot (talk | contribs) m (1,130 bytes) (Robot: Editing intentional link to disambiguation page in hatnote per WP:INTDABLINK (explanation)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 05:06, 14 September 2010 Hmains (talk | contribs) m (1,096 bytes) (→Implications: copyedit, MOS and or AWB general fixes using AWB (7069)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 23:39, 19 May 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,090 bytes) (added hatnote) (undo)
(cur | prev) 23:35, 19 May 2010 StAnselm (talk | contribs) (1,060 bytes) (Copied old version of Versification, now that this has become a disambiguation page)
Talk:Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
Bible.malmesbury.arp.jpg Bible portal
This page is within the scope of WikiProject Bible, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Bible on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
NA This page does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
Low This page has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This page is supported by Biblical criticism work group (marked as Low-importance).
[edit] Proposed merger
I don't see the point of this page, and therefore propose that it be merged and redirected to Chapters and verses of the Bible. The external link currently provided does not serve as a citation for the page content, and is itself so arcane and technical that it is unlikely to help most readers. Therefore "forms part of the Bible's paratext" may be the only bit worth merging. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Merge: In looking at the history of this article, my guess is that original wiki editor was not aware of Chapters and Verses of the Bible. Whilst the two topics do refer to different things, given the history of both articles, I doubt either will be developed well enough for the general reader to grok the difference between the two topics. p (talk) 18:13, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes Done The original version did include a link to that page. I guess this page was created for the purpose of disambiguation; if so, a redirect achieves that. - Fayenatic (talk) 14:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Edit this page | Stop watching | View article | Page history | What links here | Related changes
| Move this page
Main Page | About Wikipedia |
Find:
This page was last modified on 2011-06-30 at 14:17:39.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Contact us
Revision history of Talk:Versification (Bible)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
View logs for this page
Browse history From year (and earlier): From month (and earlier): Tag filter: Deleted only
For any version listed below, click on its date to view it. For more help, see Help:Page history and Help:Edit summary.
External tools: Revision history statistics · Contributors · Revision history search · Number of watchers · Page view statistics (cur) = difference from current version, (prev) = difference from preceding version, m = minor edit, → = section edit, ← = automatic edit summary
(cur | prev) 14:17, 30 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (1,391 bytes) (merger done) (undo)
(cur | prev) 18:13, 29 June 2011 Pseudo daoist (talk | contribs) (1,093 bytes) (→Proposed merger: Merge) (undo)
(cur | prev) 19:56, 20 June 2011 Fayenatic london (talk | contribs) (653 bytes) (→Proposed merger: new section) (undo)
(cur | prev) 13:04, 22 April 2011 Pseudo daoist (talk | contribs) (141 bytes) (Bible Portal, Christianity Portal)
Catholic Public Domain Version
To contact us Click HERE
Catholic Public Domain Version
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
The topic of this article may not meet the general notability guideline. Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted. (April 2009)
Catholic Public Domain Version
Full name: Catholic Public Domain Version
Abbreviation: CPDV
Complete Bible published: 100% complete, March 28th, 2009
Textual basis: Sixtus V and Clement VIII Latin Vulgate
Translation type: modern
Copyright status: Public domain (copyright waived)
Online address: http://www.sacredbible.org/
Genesis 1:1-3
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth. But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light." And light became.
Genesis 1:1 in other translations
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
John 3:16 in other translations
This box: view · talk · edit
The Bible in English
Old English (pre-1066)
Middle English (1066–1500)
Early Modern English (1500–1800)
Modern Christian (1800–)
Modern Jewish (1853–)
Miscellaneous
This box: view · talk · edit
The Catholic Public Domain Version (CPDV), is an English translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate, prepared and edited by Catholic writer Ronald L. Conte Jr.. The translator used the Challoner Douay-Rheims version as a guide in translating the Latin Vulgate edition of Popes Sixtus V and Clement VIII. This translation is published together with the Latin Vulgate text, translation notes, and commentary.
The CPDV is published without ecclesiastical approval and hence has not obtained official recognition as a Catholic version of Sacred Scripture. It has no Imprimatur. Canon 825 of the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law provides:
§1. Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and sufficient annotations.
[edit] External links
Official site
Stub icon This article about a book related to Christianity is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
v · d · eEnglish language translations of the Bible
5th–11th century
Wessex Gospels · Old English Hexateuch · Old English Bible translations
Middle English
Wycliffe · Middle English Bible translations
16th–17th century
Tyndale · Coverdale · Matthew · Great Bible · Taverner · Geneva · Bishops' · Douay–Rheims · Authorized King James
18th–19th century
Challoner · Webster's · Young's Literal · Revised · Darby · Joseph Smith · Quaker
20th century
American Standard · Rotherham's Emphasized · Ferrar Fenton · Worrell New Testament · Knox · Basic English · Revised Standard · Anchor · New World · New English Bible · New American Standard · Good News · Jerusalem · New American · Living · New International · New Century · Bethel · New King James · New Jerusalem · Recovery · New Revised Standard · Revised English · Contemporary English · The Message · Clear Word · New Life · 21st Century King James · Third Millennium · New International Reader's · New International Inclusive Language · God's Word · New Living · Complete Jewish Bible · International Standard · Holman Christian Standard · The Scriptures '98
21st century
World English · English Standard · Today's New International · New English Translation (NET Bible) · New English Translation of the Septuagint · Orthodox Study Bible · The Voice · Common English Bible · Catholic Public Domain · WGC Illustrated · Apostolic Bible Polyglot · Open English Bible · Eastern Orthodox Bible · New American Bible Revised Edition · Lexham English Bible
This page was last modified on 2011-08-16 at 00:21:14.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Catholic Public Domain Version
(cur | prev) 2011-08-16T00:21:14 Chonak (talk | contribs) (2,409 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic Public Domain Version (2nd nomination)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-15T09:23:30 Good Olfactory (talk | contribs) (2,143 bytes) (added Category:2009 in religion using HotCat) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T11:15:32 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,113 bytes) (Added that it has no Imprimatur, wikilinked.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-10-13T16:13:45 Mclay1 (talk | contribs) m (2,088 bytes) (Adding category Category:2009 books (using HotCat)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-07-12T21:03:48 Surv1v4l1st (talk | contribs) (2,064 bytes) (→External links: Formatting) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-03-14T23:01:51 JBogdan (talk | contribs) (2,047 bytes) (added navbox) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-03-14T21:49:06 JBogdan (talk | contribs) (2,009 bytes) (added category Category:Public domain books) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-07-28T11:11:58 Cavila (talk | contribs) m (1,976 bytes) (Removed category Bible versions and translations; Quick-adding category English Bible translations (using HotCat)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-11T19:25:33 Chonak (talk | contribs) (1,980 bytes) (drop link; article was deleted) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-09T13:30:36 75.74.23.83 (talk) (1,984 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T19:24:34 Spitfire (talk | contribs) m (1,966 bytes) (Date for notability tag) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:05:26 Chonak (talk | contribs) (1,950 bytes) (tidy up; add wikilinks; stick to facts. Is this one-man project notable?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-03-16T16:57:45 151.53.155.67 (talk) (2,162 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-03-16T16:55:50 151.53.155.67 (talk) (2,175 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-02-16T13:19:31 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (2,179 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-10-26T00:31:25 151.53.156.29 (talk) (2,131 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-10-26T00:29:35 151.53.156.29 (talk) (2,131 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-25T10:16:02 SmackBot (talk | contribs) m (2,015 bytes) (Correct header caps and general fixes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-01T17:58:13 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (2,016 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-16T00:30:18 66.229.175.245 (talk) (1,989 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-02T15:05:18 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (1,960 bytes) (Adding section on relevant Canon Law) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-04-30T03:02:54 GRBerry (talk | contribs) (1,489 bytes) (uopdate completion percentage based on current value at external link) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-17T18:24:34 208.7.93.138 (talk) (1,490 bytes) (→Characteristics of the Translation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T22:02:30 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,509 bytes) (→Characteristics) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:55:59 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,490 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:54:10 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,492 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:43:13 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,339 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:38:52 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,333 bytes) (→Names of Books) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:33:28 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,351 bytes) (→External Links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:33:13 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,350 bytes) (→External Links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T19:33:33 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,322 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T19:31:23 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) m (1,326 bytes) (adding more sections) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-12-15T03:41:47 CmdrObot (talk | contribs) m (1,015 bytes) (capitalisation: latin) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:20:47 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (1,015 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:18:59 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (1,006 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:18:31 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (983 bytes) (←Created page with '{{Bible translation infobox | image = | translation_title=Catholic Public Domain Version | full_name=Catholic Public Domain Version | abbreviation=CPDV | complete...')
Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
P christianity.svg Christianity portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
Bible.malmesbury.arp.jpg Bible portal
This article is supported by WikiProject Bible.
Taskforce icon
046CupolaSPietro.jpg Catholicism portal
This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism.
[edit] Vatican has only 4 years left?
A quote from a CPDV page ([1]):" Having a Bible version controlled by the Holy See would be a significant advantage over the current situation, where the liberal USCCB controls the NAB version, and Protestant groups control numerous other versions (even the RSV Catholic Edition), and secular for-profit corporations own the copyright on the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bibles.
But the Church is about to pass through a time of great suffering. And the City of the Vatican will be destroyed in July of 2013. So it may be some time before the Holy See has Bible versions in various languages over which it has the primary responsibility for editing and maintaining."
Huh? Vatican destroyed? :-S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.115.194 (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I've encountered this person on other parts of the Internet. Has this curious property of considering themselves devoutly Catholic while also apparently feeling that the entire Catholic Church is corrupt and stupid, and should do things their way. They had been informed before publishing this Bible that they needed to get a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, etc, before their translation could be considered even a non-corrupt guide to Scripture for a Catholic, let alone become the primary English text, as they clearly want. Still they went ahead and published without, apparently, even trying to get it approved. It doesn't really surprise me to see them also stating various interpretations of prophecy as fact.
Readers may enjoy looking at Prophecy of the Popes and Three secrets of Fatima. 86.164.66.52 (talk) 12:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
This page was last modified on 2011-06-17 at 12:02:41.
Revision history of Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version
(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T12:02:41 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,086 bytes) (→Vatican has only 4 years left?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:41:41 SineBot (talk | contribs) m (1,156 bytes) (Signing comment by 81.182.115.194 - "") (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:40:15 81.182.115.194 (talk) (856 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:55 GRBerry (talk | contribs) m (64 bytes) (bible project also) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:01 GRBerry (talk | contribs) (54 bytes) (christianity wikiproject, stub, catholicism)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
The topic of this article may not meet the general notability guideline. Please help to establish notability by adding reliable, secondary sources about the topic. If notability cannot be established, the article is likely to be merged, redirected, or deleted. (April 2009)
Catholic Public Domain Version
Full name: Catholic Public Domain Version
Abbreviation: CPDV
Complete Bible published: 100% complete, March 28th, 2009
Textual basis: Sixtus V and Clement VIII Latin Vulgate
Translation type: modern
Copyright status: Public domain (copyright waived)
Online address: http://www.sacredbible.org/
Genesis 1:1-3
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth. But the earth was empty and unoccupied, and darknesses were over the face of the abyss; and so the Spirit of God was brought over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light." And light became.
Genesis 1:1 in other translations
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that all who believe in him may not perish, but may have eternal life.
John 3:16 in other translations
This box: view · talk · edit
The Bible in English
Old English (pre-1066)
Middle English (1066–1500)
Early Modern English (1500–1800)
Modern Christian (1800–)
Modern Jewish (1853–)
Miscellaneous
This box: view · talk · edit
The Catholic Public Domain Version (CPDV), is an English translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate, prepared and edited by Catholic writer Ronald L. Conte Jr.. The translator used the Challoner Douay-Rheims version as a guide in translating the Latin Vulgate edition of Popes Sixtus V and Clement VIII. This translation is published together with the Latin Vulgate text, translation notes, and commentary.
The CPDV is published without ecclesiastical approval and hence has not obtained official recognition as a Catholic version of Sacred Scripture. It has no Imprimatur. Canon 825 of the Roman Catholic Code of Canon Law provides:
§1. Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and sufficient annotations.
[edit] External links
Official site
Stub icon This article about a book related to Christianity is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
v · d · eEnglish language translations of the Bible
5th–11th century
Wessex Gospels · Old English Hexateuch · Old English Bible translations
Middle English
Wycliffe · Middle English Bible translations
16th–17th century
Tyndale · Coverdale · Matthew · Great Bible · Taverner · Geneva · Bishops' · Douay–Rheims · Authorized King James
18th–19th century
Challoner · Webster's · Young's Literal · Revised · Darby · Joseph Smith · Quaker
20th century
American Standard · Rotherham's Emphasized · Ferrar Fenton · Worrell New Testament · Knox · Basic English · Revised Standard · Anchor · New World · New English Bible · New American Standard · Good News · Jerusalem · New American · Living · New International · New Century · Bethel · New King James · New Jerusalem · Recovery · New Revised Standard · Revised English · Contemporary English · The Message · Clear Word · New Life · 21st Century King James · Third Millennium · New International Reader's · New International Inclusive Language · God's Word · New Living · Complete Jewish Bible · International Standard · Holman Christian Standard · The Scriptures '98
21st century
World English · English Standard · Today's New International · New English Translation (NET Bible) · New English Translation of the Septuagint · Orthodox Study Bible · The Voice · Common English Bible · Catholic Public Domain · WGC Illustrated · Apostolic Bible Polyglot · Open English Bible · Eastern Orthodox Bible · New American Bible Revised Edition · Lexham English Bible
This page was last modified on 2011-08-16 at 00:21:14.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Catholic Public Domain Version
(cur | prev) 2011-08-16T00:21:14 Chonak (talk | contribs) (2,409 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Catholic Public Domain Version (2nd nomination)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-15T09:23:30 Good Olfactory (talk | contribs) (2,143 bytes) (added Category:2009 in religion using HotCat) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T11:15:32 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,113 bytes) (Added that it has no Imprimatur, wikilinked.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-10-13T16:13:45 Mclay1 (talk | contribs) m (2,088 bytes) (Adding category Category:2009 books (using HotCat)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-07-12T21:03:48 Surv1v4l1st (talk | contribs) (2,064 bytes) (→External links: Formatting) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-03-14T23:01:51 JBogdan (talk | contribs) (2,047 bytes) (added navbox) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-03-14T21:49:06 JBogdan (talk | contribs) (2,009 bytes) (added category Category:Public domain books) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-07-28T11:11:58 Cavila (talk | contribs) m (1,976 bytes) (Removed category Bible versions and translations; Quick-adding category English Bible translations (using HotCat)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-11T19:25:33 Chonak (talk | contribs) (1,980 bytes) (drop link; article was deleted) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-09T13:30:36 75.74.23.83 (talk) (1,984 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T19:24:34 Spitfire (talk | contribs) m (1,966 bytes) (Date for notability tag) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:05:26 Chonak (talk | contribs) (1,950 bytes) (tidy up; add wikilinks; stick to facts. Is this one-man project notable?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-03-16T16:57:45 151.53.155.67 (talk) (2,162 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-03-16T16:55:50 151.53.155.67 (talk) (2,175 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-02-16T13:19:31 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (2,179 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-10-26T00:31:25 151.53.156.29 (talk) (2,131 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-10-26T00:29:35 151.53.156.29 (talk) (2,131 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-25T10:16:02 SmackBot (talk | contribs) m (2,015 bytes) (Correct header caps and general fixes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-09-01T17:58:13 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (2,016 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-16T00:30:18 66.229.175.245 (talk) (1,989 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-02T15:05:18 Pediahound (talk | contribs) (1,960 bytes) (Adding section on relevant Canon Law) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-04-30T03:02:54 GRBerry (talk | contribs) (1,489 bytes) (uopdate completion percentage based on current value at external link) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-17T18:24:34 208.7.93.138 (talk) (1,490 bytes) (→Characteristics of the Translation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T22:02:30 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,509 bytes) (→Characteristics) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:55:59 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,490 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:54:10 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,492 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:43:13 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,339 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:38:52 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,333 bytes) (→Names of Books) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:33:28 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,351 bytes) (→External Links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T20:33:13 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,350 bytes) (→External Links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T19:33:33 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) (1,322 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-16T19:31:23 Radi3752 (talk | contribs) m (1,326 bytes) (adding more sections) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-12-15T03:41:47 CmdrObot (talk | contribs) m (1,015 bytes) (capitalisation: latin) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:20:47 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (1,015 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:18:59 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (1,006 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-10-10T05:18:31 CConnla77 (talk | contribs) (983 bytes) (←Created page with '{{Bible translation infobox | image = | translation_title=Catholic Public Domain Version | full_name=Catholic Public Domain Version | abbreviation=CPDV | complete...')
Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
P christianity.svg Christianity portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Stub This article has been rated as Stub-Class on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
Bible.malmesbury.arp.jpg Bible portal
This article is supported by WikiProject Bible.
Taskforce icon
046CupolaSPietro.jpg Catholicism portal
This article is supported by WikiProject Catholicism.
[edit] Vatican has only 4 years left?
A quote from a CPDV page ([1]):" Having a Bible version controlled by the Holy See would be a significant advantage over the current situation, where the liberal USCCB controls the NAB version, and Protestant groups control numerous other versions (even the RSV Catholic Edition), and secular for-profit corporations own the copyright on the Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bibles.
But the Church is about to pass through a time of great suffering. And the City of the Vatican will be destroyed in July of 2013. So it may be some time before the Holy See has Bible versions in various languages over which it has the primary responsibility for editing and maintaining."
Huh? Vatican destroyed? :-S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.115.194 (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Yes, I've encountered this person on other parts of the Internet. Has this curious property of considering themselves devoutly Catholic while also apparently feeling that the entire Catholic Church is corrupt and stupid, and should do things their way. They had been informed before publishing this Bible that they needed to get a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, etc, before their translation could be considered even a non-corrupt guide to Scripture for a Catholic, let alone become the primary English text, as they clearly want. Still they went ahead and published without, apparently, even trying to get it approved. It doesn't really surprise me to see them also stating various interpretations of prophecy as fact.
Readers may enjoy looking at Prophecy of the Popes and Three secrets of Fatima. 86.164.66.52 (talk) 12:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
This page was last modified on 2011-06-17 at 12:02:41.
Revision history of Talk:Catholic Public Domain Version
(cur | prev) 2011-06-17T12:02:41 86.164.66.52 (talk) (2,086 bytes) (→Vatican has only 4 years left?) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:41:41 SineBot (talk | contribs) m (1,156 bytes) (Signing comment by 81.182.115.194 - "") (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-04-06T18:40:15 81.182.115.194 (talk) (856 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:55 GRBerry (talk | contribs) m (64 bytes) (bible project also) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-05-20T16:20:01 GRBerry (talk | contribs) (54 bytes) (christianity wikiproject, stub, catholicism)
Christian-New Age dialogue
To contact us Click HERE
Christian-New Age dialogue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
This article may contain promotional material and other spam. Please remove any content which is not encyclopedic, and any promotional external links in accordance with Wikipedia:External links. (You can help!) (August 2011)
New Agers, many of whom had grown up as Christians, rejected that religion as a spirit-stifling relic of a bygone era. Instead, they tried to celebrate alternative ideas, some of which are based on ancient teachings, while others are founded on contemporary paradigms, ranging from New Physics to ufology.
Even today, some Christians refer to the New Age Movement as “simply a re-packaging of Satanic beliefs.[1] Others assert that “The concepts of the New Age Movement are not new — they are based on ancient erroneous beliefs about God, man and the world.”[2] On the other hand, many New Age proponents still question the necessity or desirability of a male god.[3] One group of alternative seekers who refer to themselves as “Millennials” say, “Religion is losing us because it invokes disagreement and violence…”[4]
“Dialogue” can be defined as a “conversation” or “exchange of ideas … with a view to reaching an amicable agreement.”[5] According to others, it also denotes a “communication” or a “search for truth.”[6]
Some have noted that “ours is a culture largely frustrated with the prevailing religious establishment….”.[citation needed] Catherine Groves, editor of Christian*New Age Quarterly, refers not only to those seeking alternative spiritual paths, but also to Christians who desire a deeper meaning within their own religion. She suggests “vying to better oneself at the expense of the whole is recognized … as an abysmal way to interact in an ever shrinking, endangered world.”[7] Thus, the “ever shrinking world” needs, according to Groves, a population committed to dialogue, to an understanding and appreciation of the other.
Another aspect of dialogue is presented by Robert Arias, a research neurophysiologist, who writes that the Western and Eastern ideas of spirituality “stand in striking contrast” to each other. However, he observes that each works using a specific area of the brain. The “left hemisphere contains the centers for verbal reasoning and analytical thought…,” relating to a regulated spiritual belief. The right hemisphere “is responsible for intuitive thought … fitting together of separate things into coherent patterns,” relating to a more inclusive spiritual belief.[8]
Perhaps therapist/case manager Sally Nulph offers a basis for dialogue when she writes, “A spiritual path should be clear and unified.... If a Christian or a New Age follower seeks to find their greatest peace, they need to constantly assess where their path is taking them.”[9]
Others advance this thought. Lutheran theologian Ted Peters writes of the Graduate Theological Union (GTU), a scholastic center originally intended to bring different factions of Christianity together for “interdenominational cooperation.” Later, the GTU expanded to include other theologies such as Judaism and Buddhism. Peters observes, “It is this combination of authentic traditions that gives the ecumenical mix its tensive and exciting flavor.” He further speaks of our world being “in reality pluralistic; so I for one could not conceive of an adequate theological education that does not reflect this undeniable reality.”[10]
Another voice for the importance of dialogue is Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue (Founded in 1989).[11] Peters adds, “Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange…,” thus creating “a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking.”[12]
[edit] 1 References
^ http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
^ http://bibleprobe.com
^ “Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity,” http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.
^ “Millennial Generation Spirituality,” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
^ The Random House Dictionary of the English Language (New York: Random House, 1967).
^ J. I. Rodale, The Synonym Finder (New York: Warner Books, 1978).
^ Catherine Groves, “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change,” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
^ Robert Arias, research neurophysiologist and author in the field of spirituality, “The Complementarity of Opposites,” Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009).
^ Sally Nulph, therapist/case manager, Newaygo Mental Health, Greater Grand Rapids, MI, “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
^ Rev. Dr. Theodore Peters, professor of systematic theology, Pacific Lutheran Seminary and Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement, (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991).
^ Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue, Catherine Groves, editor, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276, http://www.christiannewage.com.
^ The Cosmic Self: “Positive yet nonsyncretistic assessments of the new age on the part of Christians are rare. One example, however, is the Christian*New Age Quarterly, edited by Catherine Groves. Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange,’ of ‘Christian-New Age friction’ and of ‘dialogue.’ What she favors is a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking. Copies of the quarterly can be obtained from Christian*New Age Quarterly, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276,” p. 208.
[edit] 2 Bibliography
Arias, Robert. "The Complementarity of Opposites." Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009). http://www.christiannewage.com.
Bible Probe for Christians and Messianic Jews. http://bibleprobe.com.
Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue. P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276. http://www.christiannewage.com.
Groves, Catherine. “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change.” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
Lighting the Way Worldwide: Telling the World About Jesus. http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
“Millennial Generation Spirituality.” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
Nulph, Sally. “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
Peters, Theodore. The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991.
“Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity.” posted by Mu. http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.
[edit] 3 See also
Landaiche, Nemour. "Proposing a Bridge When the Other Sees No Divide." Christian*New Age Quarterly (January–March 1996).
This page was last modified on 2011-08-20 at 12:29:41.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Christian-New Age dialogue
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:29:41 AnomieBOT (talk | contribs) m (7,527 bytes) (Dating maintenance tags: {{Cn}}) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:23:20 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (7,510 bytes) (added back founding) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:21:46 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (7,492 bytes) (removed essayese or useless sentences) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:12:44 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,512 bytes) (removed essayese) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:11:39 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,815 bytes) (removed pointless sentence) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:11:16 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,951 bytes) (articles, not essays) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-19T01:44:48 Helpful Pixie Bot (talk | contribs) m (9,241 bytes) (Dated {{Cleanup-spam}}. (Build p613)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-19T01:41:29 202.124.73.121 (talk) (9,191 bytes) (tag) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T18:03:58 99.140.177.13 (talk) (9,174 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T19:06:23 69.116.166.16 (talk) (11,305 bytes) (→Christian-New Age Dialogue: edited) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T18:27:15 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (11,302 bytes) (Undid revision 444666559 by Bothand (talk) restore afd template) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T18:14:52 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,889 bytes) (Undid revision 444664025 by Jac16888 (talk); this article should not be deleted as a reading of it shows it is a fair appraisal of Christian and New Age relationship) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T17:57:17 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (11,302 bytes) (Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian-New Age dialogue. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T16:53:37 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,889 bytes) (light editing changes made to first paragraph) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T16:50:51 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,871 bytes) (A paragraph has been added clarifying content of article. Objection to removal of article is based upon its careful exploration of both sides of Christian and New Age tension and the history of Christian and New Age attempts to further dialogue.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-06T01:00:13 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (10,767 bytes) (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-14T03:31:10 DragonflySixtyseven (talk | contribs) m (10,602 bytes) (moved Christian-New Age Dialogue to Christian-New Age dialogue) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-10T22:20:33 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (10,602 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:39:49 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (10,558 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:11:29 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,400 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:08:59 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,425 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:06:31 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,378 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-03T23:19:30 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,449 bytes) (grammatical change) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-01T22:52:26 Katharineamy (talk | contribs) (11,448 bytes) (+Category:Christianity; +Category:New Age; +Category:Interfaith using HotCat) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-01T22:05:39 Bearcat (talk | contribs) (11,409 bytes) (categorization/tagging using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-30T22:53:18 Bothand (talk | contribs) m (11,545 bytes) (moved User:Bothand to Christian-New Age Dialogue: Name better suits content) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-30T22:22:14 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,545 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-28T00:48:20 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,566 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:55:20 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,546 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:53:33 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,542 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:39:44 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,449 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:33:49 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,434 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:29:18 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,419 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:26:36 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,393 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:18:51 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,287 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:04:43 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,130 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T22:58:34 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,125 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T22:53:02 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,087 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-26T19:27:51 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,056 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T21:58:14 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,057 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T16:21:40 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,044 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T16:18:11 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,044 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T22:22:03 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,042 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T22:18:34 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,068 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T21:22:30 Bothand (talk | contribs) (7,013 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-10T21:45:19 Bothand (talk | contribs) (1,090 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-08T21:38:03 Bothand (talk | contribs) (1,171 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-14T16:03:28 Bothand (talk | contribs) (711 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T21:13:42 Bothand (talk | contribs) (370 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T19:38:29 Bothand (talk | contribs) (337 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T17:08:12 Bothand (talk | contribs) (25 bytes) (←Created page with 'User:Bothand - practice')
Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Today (August 14, 2011) I noticed that this page is up for deletion -- and I can't for the life of me imagine why.
Though I'm quite familiar with both the terms "Christian" and "New Age", I'm not a practicing "Christian" -- nor am I much of an adherent of "new age" principles. That said, however, I find any discourse of the two subjects fascinating and invigorating to my spirit and intellect. Similar to political discussions that can be anywhere from far right to far left, open discussion of the theories involved help all parties come to their own personal feelings about the issues involved. Knowledge, after all, is power.
My own spiritual practices are more of an amalgamation of various spiritual practices with a dash of free-will thrown into the mix. This is why I'm SO fascinated with any discussions between folks of different faiths, beliefs, and paths. Without lively discussion, how can people come to their own conclusions -- conclusions which, as a result of the discourse, may be moved along into new depths of richness and knowing?
I sincerely hope that Wikipedia will allow this page to remain -- thereby encouraging a (possibly lively) discussion between folks interesting in both Christian and New Age dialogues.
Thanks for your own input! That's what it's all about!
Michael Walker Washington, DC http://dreamwalkergroup.com
This page was last modified on 2011-08-14 at 15:46:54.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:46:54 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,362 bytes) (Added homepage.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:44:16 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,334 bytes) (Starting open Christian-New Age dialog.)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
This article may contain promotional material and other spam. Please remove any content which is not encyclopedic, and any promotional external links in accordance with Wikipedia:External links. (You can help!) (August 2011)
New Agers, many of whom had grown up as Christians, rejected that religion as a spirit-stifling relic of a bygone era. Instead, they tried to celebrate alternative ideas, some of which are based on ancient teachings, while others are founded on contemporary paradigms, ranging from New Physics to ufology.
Even today, some Christians refer to the New Age Movement as “simply a re-packaging of Satanic beliefs.[1] Others assert that “The concepts of the New Age Movement are not new — they are based on ancient erroneous beliefs about God, man and the world.”[2] On the other hand, many New Age proponents still question the necessity or desirability of a male god.[3] One group of alternative seekers who refer to themselves as “Millennials” say, “Religion is losing us because it invokes disagreement and violence…”[4]
“Dialogue” can be defined as a “conversation” or “exchange of ideas … with a view to reaching an amicable agreement.”[5] According to others, it also denotes a “communication” or a “search for truth.”[6]
Some have noted that “ours is a culture largely frustrated with the prevailing religious establishment….”.[citation needed] Catherine Groves, editor of Christian*New Age Quarterly, refers not only to those seeking alternative spiritual paths, but also to Christians who desire a deeper meaning within their own religion. She suggests “vying to better oneself at the expense of the whole is recognized … as an abysmal way to interact in an ever shrinking, endangered world.”[7] Thus, the “ever shrinking world” needs, according to Groves, a population committed to dialogue, to an understanding and appreciation of the other.
Another aspect of dialogue is presented by Robert Arias, a research neurophysiologist, who writes that the Western and Eastern ideas of spirituality “stand in striking contrast” to each other. However, he observes that each works using a specific area of the brain. The “left hemisphere contains the centers for verbal reasoning and analytical thought…,” relating to a regulated spiritual belief. The right hemisphere “is responsible for intuitive thought … fitting together of separate things into coherent patterns,” relating to a more inclusive spiritual belief.[8]
Perhaps therapist/case manager Sally Nulph offers a basis for dialogue when she writes, “A spiritual path should be clear and unified.... If a Christian or a New Age follower seeks to find their greatest peace, they need to constantly assess where their path is taking them.”[9]
Others advance this thought. Lutheran theologian Ted Peters writes of the Graduate Theological Union (GTU), a scholastic center originally intended to bring different factions of Christianity together for “interdenominational cooperation.” Later, the GTU expanded to include other theologies such as Judaism and Buddhism. Peters observes, “It is this combination of authentic traditions that gives the ecumenical mix its tensive and exciting flavor.” He further speaks of our world being “in reality pluralistic; so I for one could not conceive of an adequate theological education that does not reflect this undeniable reality.”[10]
Another voice for the importance of dialogue is Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue (Founded in 1989).[11] Peters adds, “Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange…,” thus creating “a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking.”[12]
[edit] 1 References
^ http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
^ http://bibleprobe.com
^ “Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity,” http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.
^ “Millennial Generation Spirituality,” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
^ The Random House Dictionary of the English Language (New York: Random House, 1967).
^ J. I. Rodale, The Synonym Finder (New York: Warner Books, 1978).
^ Catherine Groves, “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change,” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
^ Robert Arias, research neurophysiologist and author in the field of spirituality, “The Complementarity of Opposites,” Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009).
^ Sally Nulph, therapist/case manager, Newaygo Mental Health, Greater Grand Rapids, MI, “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
^ Rev. Dr. Theodore Peters, professor of systematic theology, Pacific Lutheran Seminary and Graduate Theological Union, Berkeley, The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement, (San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991).
^ Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue, Catherine Groves, editor, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276, http://www.christiannewage.com.
^ The Cosmic Self: “Positive yet nonsyncretistic assessments of the new age on the part of Christians are rare. One example, however, is the Christian*New Age Quarterly, edited by Catherine Groves. Groves can speak of ‘two frameworks of exchange,’ of ‘Christian-New Age friction’ and of ‘dialogue.’ What she favors is a mood of ‘both/and’ to replace ‘either/or’ thinking. Copies of the quarterly can be obtained from Christian*New Age Quarterly, P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276,” p. 208.
[edit] 2 Bibliography
Arias, Robert. "The Complementarity of Opposites." Christian*New Age Quarterly 18:4 (June 2008-February 2009). http://www.christiannewage.com.
Bible Probe for Christians and Messianic Jews. http://bibleprobe.com.
Christian*New Age Quarterly: A bridge supporting dialogue. P.O. Box 276, Clifton, NJ 07015-0276. http://www.christiannewage.com.
Groves, Catherine. “The Small Magazine at the Forefront of Religious Change.” The Small Magazine Review 1:7 (December 1993).
Lighting the Way Worldwide: Telling the World About Jesus. http://lightingthewayworldwide.org.
“Millennial Generation Spirituality.” http://www.grapethinking.com/millennial-generation-spirituality.
Nulph, Sally. “Are Christian and New Age Beliefs Compatible?” Pagewise (2002).
Peters, Theodore. The Cosmic Self: A Penetrating Look at Today’s New Age Movement. San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1991.
“Why is God Male?: Thealogy — The Politics and Sociology of Religion and Abrahamic Hypermasculinity.” posted by Mu. http://kwelos.tripod.com/thealogy.htm.
[edit] 3 See also
Landaiche, Nemour. "Proposing a Bridge When the Other Sees No Divide." Christian*New Age Quarterly (January–March 1996).
This page was last modified on 2011-08-20 at 12:29:41.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Christian-New Age dialogue
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:29:41 AnomieBOT (talk | contribs) m (7,527 bytes) (Dating maintenance tags: {{Cn}}) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:23:20 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (7,510 bytes) (added back founding) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:21:46 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (7,492 bytes) (removed essayese or useless sentences) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:12:44 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,512 bytes) (removed essayese) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:11:39 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,815 bytes) (removed pointless sentence) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-20T12:11:16 Curb Chain (talk | contribs) (8,951 bytes) (articles, not essays) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-19T01:44:48 Helpful Pixie Bot (talk | contribs) m (9,241 bytes) (Dated {{Cleanup-spam}}. (Build p613)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-19T01:41:29 202.124.73.121 (talk) (9,191 bytes) (tag) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T18:03:58 99.140.177.13 (talk) (9,174 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T19:06:23 69.116.166.16 (talk) (11,305 bytes) (→Christian-New Age Dialogue: edited) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T18:27:15 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (11,302 bytes) (Undid revision 444666559 by Bothand (talk) restore afd template) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T18:14:52 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,889 bytes) (Undid revision 444664025 by Jac16888 (talk); this article should not be deleted as a reading of it shows it is a fair appraisal of Christian and New Age relationship) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T17:57:17 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (11,302 bytes) (Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian-New Age dialogue. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T16:53:37 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,889 bytes) (light editing changes made to first paragraph) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-13T16:50:51 Bothand (talk | contribs) (10,871 bytes) (A paragraph has been added clarifying content of article. Objection to removal of article is based upon its careful exploration of both sides of Christian and New Age tension and the history of Christian and New Age attempts to further dialogue.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-06T01:00:13 Jac16888 (talk | contribs) (10,767 bytes) (Proposing article for deletion per WP:PROD. (TW)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-14T03:31:10 DragonflySixtyseven (talk | contribs) m (10,602 bytes) (moved Christian-New Age Dialogue to Christian-New Age dialogue) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-10T22:20:33 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (10,602 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:39:49 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (10,558 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:11:29 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,400 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:08:59 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,425 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-08T21:06:31 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,378 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-03T23:19:30 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,449 bytes) (grammatical change) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-01T22:52:26 Katharineamy (talk | contribs) (11,448 bytes) (+Category:Christianity; +Category:New Age; +Category:Interfaith using HotCat) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-01T22:05:39 Bearcat (talk | contribs) (11,409 bytes) (categorization/tagging using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-30T22:53:18 Bothand (talk | contribs) m (11,545 bytes) (moved User:Bothand to Christian-New Age Dialogue: Name better suits content) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-30T22:22:14 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,545 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-28T00:48:20 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,566 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:55:20 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,546 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:53:33 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,542 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:39:44 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,449 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:33:49 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,434 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:29:18 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,419 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:26:36 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,393 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:18:51 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,287 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T23:04:43 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,130 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T22:58:34 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,125 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-27T22:53:02 Christian-New Age Dialogue (talk | contribs) (11,087 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-26T19:27:51 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,056 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T21:58:14 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,057 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T16:21:40 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,044 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-12T16:18:11 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,044 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T22:22:03 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,042 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T22:18:34 Bothand (talk | contribs) (11,068 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-11T21:22:30 Bothand (talk | contribs) (7,013 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-10T21:45:19 Bothand (talk | contribs) (1,090 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-08T21:38:03 Bothand (talk | contribs) (1,171 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-14T16:03:28 Bothand (talk | contribs) (711 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T21:13:42 Bothand (talk | contribs) (370 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T19:38:29 Bothand (talk | contribs) (337 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-11T17:08:12 Bothand (talk | contribs) (25 bytes) (←Created page with 'User:Bothand - practice')
Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Today (August 14, 2011) I noticed that this page is up for deletion -- and I can't for the life of me imagine why.
Though I'm quite familiar with both the terms "Christian" and "New Age", I'm not a practicing "Christian" -- nor am I much of an adherent of "new age" principles. That said, however, I find any discourse of the two subjects fascinating and invigorating to my spirit and intellect. Similar to political discussions that can be anywhere from far right to far left, open discussion of the theories involved help all parties come to their own personal feelings about the issues involved. Knowledge, after all, is power.
My own spiritual practices are more of an amalgamation of various spiritual practices with a dash of free-will thrown into the mix. This is why I'm SO fascinated with any discussions between folks of different faiths, beliefs, and paths. Without lively discussion, how can people come to their own conclusions -- conclusions which, as a result of the discourse, may be moved along into new depths of richness and knowing?
I sincerely hope that Wikipedia will allow this page to remain -- thereby encouraging a (possibly lively) discussion between folks interesting in both Christian and New Age dialogues.
Thanks for your own input! That's what it's all about!
Michael Walker Washington, DC http://dreamwalkergroup.com
This page was last modified on 2011-08-14 at 15:46:54.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Talk:Christian-New Age dialogue
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:46:54 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,362 bytes) (Added homepage.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-08-14T15:44:16 98.218.227.45 (talk) (1,334 bytes) (Starting open Christian-New Age dialog.)
The Drama of the Lost Disciples
To contact us Click HERE
The Drama of the Lost Disciples
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
The Drama of the Lost Disciples is a 1961 book by George Jowett, a former bodybuilder and fitness instructor, which purports to trace several of Christ's disciples and other associates, including Joseph of Arimathea, St. Paul, St. Simon, and even his mother Mary, to Britain, where they founded a Christian church which predates, and therefore has precedence over, the Roman Catholic Church. The book also espouses British Israelism, arguing that the Welsh and English are descended from the so-called "Lost tribes of Israel", and claiming that they preserved their genetic and religious purity more assiduously than the Jews. Theories based on Jowett's work are popular on the internet, and among British Israelites and adherents of the Christian Identity movement. The book is written in readable style. He cites classical historians, early church fathers, medieval and early modern writers, but many of these citations are distorted and inaccurate. However, the publishers of the 16th UK edition (July 2011) confirm they checked all Jowett's references.
[edit] 1 Examples of distortion of sources
Jowett claims that Julius Caesar, in his De Bello Gallico Book 4,[1] "refers in amazement to the number of populous cities, the architecture, universities of learning, the numerical population of England, and particularly to their religion with its belief in the immortality of the soul". While it is true that Caesar notes Britain's population and its status as a centre of druidical learning, and elsewhere in his commentaries notes the druids' belief in the immortality of the soul, he nowhere mentions British cities, architecture or universities.
He claims that "the early Christian and Roman records abound with the name and warrior fame of Arviragus" (supposedly a British Christian prince who led the defence against the Roman conquest), and quotes Satire IV of Juvenal as saying "Hath our great enemy Arviragus, the car borne British King, dropped from his battle throne?" as an example.[2] This cryptic mention, in a satirical poem about Roman social life, is the only mention of Arviragus's name in the entirety of classical literature, and all other known references to him are derivative of Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12th century Historia Regum Britanniae,[3] also an imaginative nationalist pseudohistory.
He claims that, of Caratacus's supposed "trial" before the emperor Claudius, "Tacitus tells us that his daughter Gladys refused to be separated from her father, though it was against the Roman law for a woman to enter the Senate..." Tacitus nowhere tells us any such thing. After Caratacus was pardoned, he claims "the famed Queen Agrippira (sic) rose from her dais, approaching the Pendragon, and his daughter Gladys, shaking hands with each according to the British fashion, then embracing them, according to the Roman." A footnote to this passage cites Tacitus's Annals 12.37,[4] which again says no such thing. He claims that Pomponia Graecina, the probably Christian wife of Aulus Plautius, was a Briton, also called "Gladys", citing Tacitus's Annals 13.32[5] in support of this assertion; Tacitus does mention Pomponia, and the fact that she was accused of "foreign superstition", but nowhere does he call her "Gladys" or claim she was British.
On other occasions he will put a passage in quotation marks, but not cite its provenance. Where he does cite sources, as shown above, he can often be demonstrated to be taking liberties with them. On other occasions his citations are more reliable, although his sources may not be.
He regularly cites the Annales Ecclesiastici of Caesar Baronius, the 16th century church historian. On one occasion he directly quotes him, regarding Joseph of Arimathea's journey, as saying, under the year AD 35, "In that year the party mentioned was exposed to the sea in a vessel without sails or oars. The vessel drifted finally to Marseilles and they were saved. From Marseilles Joseph and his company passed into Britain and after preaching the gospel there, died." This is not quite a direct quotation from the Annales Ecclesiastici, and is mis-cited. A passage found under AD 35, translated into English, reads:
"In this dispersion, Ananias, having set out from Damascus gathered together a company of believers. At the same time, as one can ascertain, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha and Marcella whom the Jews regarded with great hatred, were not exactly driven away from Jerusalem but, together with the disciple Maximinus, were placed in a boat without oars and were believed to have perished in dangerous seas. By Divine providence they are said to have been driven to Marseilles. Taking with them a friend, Joseph of Arimathea, a noble decurion, they are said to have travelled from Gaul to Britain and there he proclaimed the gospel till his last day..."[6] This passage can be read in Latin in the British Library in London.
It is also sourced by Ludovicus Guérin, the editor of the Annales, to the Acta Magalenae,[7] an 11th century piece of ecclesiastical propaganda.[8]
[edit] 2 References
^ Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico Book IV
^ Juvenal, Satire IV, .126-127
^ Geoffrey of Monmouth, Historia Regum Britanniae 4.12-17
^ Tacitus, Annals 12:37
^ Tacitus, Annals 13:32
^ Ludovicus Guérin (ed), Caesaris Barionii Annales Ecclesiastici, 1864, Vol 1, AD 35 paragraph 5, p. 208
^ op. cit. footnote 3
^ Hans Lewy, "Imaginary Journeys from Palestine to France", Journal of the Warburg Institute Vol. 1, No. 3, 1938, pp. 251-253
This page was last modified on 2011-08-04 at 09:26:20.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of The Drama of the Lost Disciples
(cur | prev) 2011-08-04T09:26:20 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (6,926 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Drama of the Lost Disciples) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-30T11:30:25 Michael Anthony Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,514 bytes) (16th UK Editon (July 2011); 'AD 36' corrected to 'AD 35' Edit by Chairman of the publisher) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-13T01:56:43 ImageRemovalBot (talk | contribs) (6,510 bytes) (Removing deleted image) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-05T19:01:42 Kinu (talk | contribs) (6,478 bytes) (Tag deletable fair use image currently lacking rationale.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-27T20:59:42 Anglo Pyramidologist (talk | contribs) (6,430 bytes) (added cover of book) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-04-05T06:49:50 FrescoBot (talk | contribs) m (6,357 bytes) (Bot: links syntax and spacing) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:52:13 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,357 bytes) (References checked for the 16th edition) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:33:48 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) (6,255 bytes) (The availability of the AD 35 quotation in Latin in the British Library in London) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:24:46 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,191 bytes) (Two tribes formed the Kingdom of Judah whereas the Ten Tribes formed the Kingdom of Israel who became 'lost' to secular history. The book written in romantic style is anything but a 'pious fraud') (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:17:59 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) m (6,174 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: cite that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:16:28 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (6,140 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: link Annales Ecclesiastic, reorder) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:12:37 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (6,051 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: source that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:05:14 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,756 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: punctuation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:01:14 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,755 bytes) (update Perseus links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:59:04 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,796 bytes) (convert refs to footnotes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:55:48 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,791 bytes) (add reflist) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:55:17 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,762 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: found ref for that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:25:28 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,572 bytes) (remove weasel words and inaccurate assertions (see talk)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T00:26:43 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,781 bytes) (New Testament reference to the British royal family in exile in Rome.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T00:03:21 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,489 bytes) ('romantic fraud' for 'pious fraud'; 'are elaborated upon' for 'deliberate distortions' to provide more balance and omit liabllous accusations) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-11T15:54:17 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,495 bytes) (Redirection to the year AD 35 in "Annales Ecclesiastici'' for the relevant quotation; tribute to Baronius; publishers remarks on 16th Edition) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-11T09:03:59 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,171 bytes) (omit "AD 36-37" for "in the last year of Tiberius") (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T17:16:41 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,154 bytes) (Literal correction 'authoritative') (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:53:12 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) (5,152 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:52:09 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,151 bytes) (Updated reference to the 2009 edition with Appendix with adjustment to the balance of bias against the author) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:39:55 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (4,855 bytes) (16th (USA) edition Nov 2009.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:36:44 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (4,850 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-01-02T23:44:42 Lightbot (talk | contribs) (4,825 bytes) (Units/dates/other) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-10T05:25:53 75.89.237.148 (talk) (4,841 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-10T05:24:44 75.89.237.148 (talk) (5,011 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-09-03T23:08:04 Java7837 (talk | contribs) (4,841 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-10-23T11:04:55 RobotG (talk | contribs) m (4,810 bytes) (Bot: Removing Category:Dubious historical resources per CFD, see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 14) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-10-18T13:54:48 Neddyseagoon (talk | contribs) m (4,880 bytes) (bad link repair, Replaced: Juvenal → Juvenal (2) using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-17T02:00:28 Can't sleep, clown will eat me (talk | contribs) (4,848 bytes) (rv anon) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-17T01:58:02 64.0.31.230 (talk) (1,208 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-05T23:41:54 MakeRocketGoNow (talk | contribs) m (4,848 bytes) (fix cat sort key) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T20:14:24 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,849 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T20:02:54 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,425 bytes) (revert attempt to suppress evidence of Jowett's dishonesty) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:46:00 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,819 bytes) (→Examples of verified sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:45:31 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,819 bytes) (→Examples of verified sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:42:40 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,734 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:25:14 130.127.75.89 (talk) (3,619 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-14T15:24:57 Panairjdde (talk | contribs) m (4,425 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T20:15:07 Llywrch (talk | contribs) (4,431 bytes) (copy edits) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T04:19:31 24.43.181.41 (talk) (4,424 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T04:19:05 24.43.181.41 (talk) (4,833 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:34:02 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,424 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:31:14 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) m (4,400 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:29:30 Fallsend (talk | contribs) (4,396 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:27:49 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) m (4,387 bytes) (sp) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:25:40 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,387 bytes) (→References) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:23:53 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,380 bytes) (+ references) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:19:36 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,058 bytes)
Talk:The Drama of the Lost Disciples
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
P religion world.svg Religion portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Interfaith work group.
This article is full of weasle words and sounds like orginal research. Which modern scholar is refuting this Jowett?
~~
I wondered when someone would try this tactic. If checking citations is "original research", then what's the point of including them? Jowett's book is demostrably riddled with falsehoods, and if you want to claim that pointing out those falsehoods is invalid, then I have to wonder about your motivations. --Nicknack009 17:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reverted new additions
I have changed and/or removed most of the edits by Michael A Clark.
Making up things and attributing them to ancient sources is not "elaborating upon" them, it's dishonest.
A Claudia and a Linus are mentioned in II Timothy. The idea that Claudia was also called "Gladys" and that she and Linus were the children of Caratacus in exile in Rome is not in II Timothy, nor in any other source. It is made up. The first bishop of Rome after Paul is indeed said to have been called Linus, but it is far from certain he was the same Linus as in II Timothy, if he even existed. II Timothy is also widely considered to be a fake.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's opinion of Baronius is a meaningless appeal to authority.
I've also removed weasel words that are designed to obscure the essentially fraudulent nature of the book.--Irishcomics (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
This page was last modified on 2010-02-20 at 22:35:18.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Talk:The Drama of the Lost Disciples
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:35:18 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (1,505 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:31:24 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (1,289 bytes) (→Reverted new additions: new section) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-20T18:37:05 BetacommandBot (talk | contribs) m (558 bytes) (tagging) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-01-13T17:49:48 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (493 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-01-13T01:37:16 LinuxDude (talk | contribs) (121 bytes)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This article is being considered for deletion in accordance with Wikipedia's deletion policy.
Please share your thoughts on the matter at this article's entry on the Articles for deletion page.
Feel free to edit the article, but the article must not be blanked, and this notice must not be removed, until the discussion is closed. For more information, particularly on merging or moving the article during the discussion, read the Guide to deletion.
The Drama of the Lost Disciples is a 1961 book by George Jowett, a former bodybuilder and fitness instructor, which purports to trace several of Christ's disciples and other associates, including Joseph of Arimathea, St. Paul, St. Simon, and even his mother Mary, to Britain, where they founded a Christian church which predates, and therefore has precedence over, the Roman Catholic Church. The book also espouses British Israelism, arguing that the Welsh and English are descended from the so-called "Lost tribes of Israel", and claiming that they preserved their genetic and religious purity more assiduously than the Jews. Theories based on Jowett's work are popular on the internet, and among British Israelites and adherents of the Christian Identity movement. The book is written in readable style. He cites classical historians, early church fathers, medieval and early modern writers, but many of these citations are distorted and inaccurate. However, the publishers of the 16th UK edition (July 2011) confirm they checked all Jowett's references.
[edit] 1 Examples of distortion of sources
Jowett claims that Julius Caesar, in his De Bello Gallico Book 4,[1] "refers in amazement to the number of populous cities, the architecture, universities of learning, the numerical population of England, and particularly to their religion with its belief in the immortality of the soul". While it is true that Caesar notes Britain's population and its status as a centre of druidical learning, and elsewhere in his commentaries notes the druids' belief in the immortality of the soul, he nowhere mentions British cities, architecture or universities.
He claims that "the early Christian and Roman records abound with the name and warrior fame of Arviragus" (supposedly a British Christian prince who led the defence against the Roman conquest), and quotes Satire IV of Juvenal as saying "Hath our great enemy Arviragus, the car borne British King, dropped from his battle throne?" as an example.[2] This cryptic mention, in a satirical poem about Roman social life, is the only mention of Arviragus's name in the entirety of classical literature, and all other known references to him are derivative of Geoffrey of Monmouth's 12th century Historia Regum Britanniae,[3] also an imaginative nationalist pseudohistory.
He claims that, of Caratacus's supposed "trial" before the emperor Claudius, "Tacitus tells us that his daughter Gladys refused to be separated from her father, though it was against the Roman law for a woman to enter the Senate..." Tacitus nowhere tells us any such thing. After Caratacus was pardoned, he claims "the famed Queen Agrippira (sic) rose from her dais, approaching the Pendragon, and his daughter Gladys, shaking hands with each according to the British fashion, then embracing them, according to the Roman." A footnote to this passage cites Tacitus's Annals 12.37,[4] which again says no such thing. He claims that Pomponia Graecina, the probably Christian wife of Aulus Plautius, was a Briton, also called "Gladys", citing Tacitus's Annals 13.32[5] in support of this assertion; Tacitus does mention Pomponia, and the fact that she was accused of "foreign superstition", but nowhere does he call her "Gladys" or claim she was British.
On other occasions he will put a passage in quotation marks, but not cite its provenance. Where he does cite sources, as shown above, he can often be demonstrated to be taking liberties with them. On other occasions his citations are more reliable, although his sources may not be.
He regularly cites the Annales Ecclesiastici of Caesar Baronius, the 16th century church historian. On one occasion he directly quotes him, regarding Joseph of Arimathea's journey, as saying, under the year AD 35, "In that year the party mentioned was exposed to the sea in a vessel without sails or oars. The vessel drifted finally to Marseilles and they were saved. From Marseilles Joseph and his company passed into Britain and after preaching the gospel there, died." This is not quite a direct quotation from the Annales Ecclesiastici, and is mis-cited. A passage found under AD 35, translated into English, reads:
"In this dispersion, Ananias, having set out from Damascus gathered together a company of believers. At the same time, as one can ascertain, Lazarus, Mary Magdalene, Martha and Marcella whom the Jews regarded with great hatred, were not exactly driven away from Jerusalem but, together with the disciple Maximinus, were placed in a boat without oars and were believed to have perished in dangerous seas. By Divine providence they are said to have been driven to Marseilles. Taking with them a friend, Joseph of Arimathea, a noble decurion, they are said to have travelled from Gaul to Britain and there he proclaimed the gospel till his last day..."[6] This passage can be read in Latin in the British Library in London.
It is also sourced by Ludovicus Guérin, the editor of the Annales, to the Acta Magalenae,[7] an 11th century piece of ecclesiastical propaganda.[8]
[edit] 2 References
^ Julius Caesar, De Bello Gallico Book IV
^ Juvenal, Satire IV, .126-127
^ Geoffrey of Monmouth, Historia Regum Britanniae 4.12-17
^ Tacitus, Annals 12:37
^ Tacitus, Annals 13:32
^ Ludovicus Guérin (ed), Caesaris Barionii Annales Ecclesiastici, 1864, Vol 1, AD 35 paragraph 5, p. 208
^ op. cit. footnote 3
^ Hans Lewy, "Imaginary Journeys from Palestine to France", Journal of the Warburg Institute Vol. 1, No. 3, 1938, pp. 251-253
This page was last modified on 2011-08-04 at 09:26:20.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of The Drama of the Lost Disciples
(cur | prev) 2011-08-04T09:26:20 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (6,926 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Drama of the Lost Disciples) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-07-30T11:30:25 Michael Anthony Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,514 bytes) (16th UK Editon (July 2011); 'AD 36' corrected to 'AD 35' Edit by Chairman of the publisher) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-13T01:56:43 ImageRemovalBot (talk | contribs) (6,510 bytes) (Removing deleted image) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-06-05T19:01:42 Kinu (talk | contribs) (6,478 bytes) (Tag deletable fair use image currently lacking rationale.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2011-05-27T20:59:42 Anglo Pyramidologist (talk | contribs) (6,430 bytes) (added cover of book) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-04-05T06:49:50 FrescoBot (talk | contribs) m (6,357 bytes) (Bot: links syntax and spacing) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:52:13 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,357 bytes) (References checked for the 16th edition) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:33:48 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) (6,255 bytes) (The availability of the AD 35 quotation in Latin in the British Library in London) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-25T21:24:46 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,191 bytes) (Two tribes formed the Kingdom of Judah whereas the Ten Tribes formed the Kingdom of Israel who became 'lost' to secular history. The book written in romantic style is anything but a 'pious fraud') (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:17:59 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) m (6,174 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: cite that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:16:28 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (6,140 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: link Annales Ecclesiastic, reorder) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:12:37 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (6,051 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: source that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:05:14 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,756 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: punctuation) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T23:01:14 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,755 bytes) (update Perseus links) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:59:04 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,796 bytes) (convert refs to footnotes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:55:48 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,791 bytes) (add reflist) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:55:17 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,762 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources: found ref for that) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:25:28 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (5,572 bytes) (remove weasel words and inaccurate assertions (see talk)) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T00:26:43 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,781 bytes) (New Testament reference to the British royal family in exile in Rome.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T00:03:21 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,489 bytes) ('romantic fraud' for 'pious fraud'; 'are elaborated upon' for 'deliberate distortions' to provide more balance and omit liabllous accusations) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-11T15:54:17 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (6,495 bytes) (Redirection to the year AD 35 in "Annales Ecclesiastici'' for the relevant quotation; tribute to Baronius; publishers remarks on 16th Edition) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-11T09:03:59 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,171 bytes) (omit "AD 36-37" for "in the last year of Tiberius") (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T17:16:41 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,154 bytes) (Literal correction 'authoritative') (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:53:12 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) (5,152 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:52:09 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (5,151 bytes) (Updated reference to the 2009 edition with Appendix with adjustment to the balance of bias against the author) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:39:55 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (4,855 bytes) (16th (USA) edition Nov 2009.) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-09T16:36:44 Michael A Clark (talk | contribs) m (4,850 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2009-01-02T23:44:42 Lightbot (talk | contribs) (4,825 bytes) (Units/dates/other) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-10T05:25:53 75.89.237.148 (talk) (4,841 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-08-10T05:24:44 75.89.237.148 (talk) (5,011 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2007-09-03T23:08:04 Java7837 (talk | contribs) (4,841 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-10-23T11:04:55 RobotG (talk | contribs) m (4,810 bytes) (Bot: Removing Category:Dubious historical resources per CFD, see Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 October 14) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-10-18T13:54:48 Neddyseagoon (talk | contribs) m (4,880 bytes) (bad link repair, Replaced: Juvenal → Juvenal (2) using AWB) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-17T02:00:28 Can't sleep, clown will eat me (talk | contribs) (4,848 bytes) (rv anon) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-17T01:58:02 64.0.31.230 (talk) (1,208 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-12-05T23:41:54 MakeRocketGoNow (talk | contribs) m (4,848 bytes) (fix cat sort key) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T20:14:24 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,849 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T20:02:54 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,425 bytes) (revert attempt to suppress evidence of Jowett's dishonesty) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:46:00 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,819 bytes) (→Examples of verified sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:45:31 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,819 bytes) (→Examples of verified sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:42:40 130.127.75.89 (talk) (1,734 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-26T17:25:14 130.127.75.89 (talk) (3,619 bytes) (→Examples of distortion of sources) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-14T15:24:57 Panairjdde (talk | contribs) m (4,425 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T20:15:07 Llywrch (talk | contribs) (4,431 bytes) (copy edits) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T04:19:31 24.43.181.41 (talk) (4,424 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-12T04:19:05 24.43.181.41 (talk) (4,833 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:34:02 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,424 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:31:14 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) m (4,400 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:29:30 Fallsend (talk | contribs) (4,396 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:27:49 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) m (4,387 bytes) (sp) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:25:40 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,387 bytes) (→References) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:23:53 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,380 bytes) (+ references) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2005-11-11T20:19:36 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (4,058 bytes)
Talk:The Drama of the Lost Disciples
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WikiProject icon
P religion world.svg Religion portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Interfaith work group.
This article is full of weasle words and sounds like orginal research. Which modern scholar is refuting this Jowett?
~~
I wondered when someone would try this tactic. If checking citations is "original research", then what's the point of including them? Jowett's book is demostrably riddled with falsehoods, and if you want to claim that pointing out those falsehoods is invalid, then I have to wonder about your motivations. --Nicknack009 17:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reverted new additions
I have changed and/or removed most of the edits by Michael A Clark.
Making up things and attributing them to ancient sources is not "elaborating upon" them, it's dishonest.
A Claudia and a Linus are mentioned in II Timothy. The idea that Claudia was also called "Gladys" and that she and Linus were the children of Caratacus in exile in Rome is not in II Timothy, nor in any other source. It is made up. The first bishop of Rome after Paul is indeed said to have been called Linus, but it is far from certain he was the same Linus as in II Timothy, if he even existed. II Timothy is also widely considered to be a fake.
The Catholic Encyclopedia's opinion of Baronius is a meaningless appeal to authority.
I've also removed weasel words that are designed to obscure the essentially fraudulent nature of the book.--Irishcomics (talk) 22:31, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
This page was last modified on 2010-02-20 at 22:35:18.
Text is available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License; additional terms may apply. See Terms of use for details.
Wikipedia® is a registered trademark of the Wikimedia Foundation, Inc., a non-profit organization.
Revision history of Talk:The Drama of the Lost Disciples
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:35:18 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (1,505 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2010-02-20T22:31:24 Irishcomics (talk | contribs) (1,289 bytes) (→Reverted new additions: new section) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2008-02-20T18:37:05 BetacommandBot (talk | contribs) m (558 bytes) (tagging) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-01-13T17:49:48 Nicknack009 (talk | contribs) (493 bytes) (undo)
(cur | prev) 2006-01-13T01:37:16 LinuxDude (talk | contribs) (121 bytes)
Kaydol:
Yorumlar (Atom)